gold news

 [Music] I'm Charlotte Mloud with investingnews.com and here today with me is Chris Bosy, president of Neptune Global. Thank you so much for being here. Great to have you as always. Thanks for having me on your show, Charlotte. Great to be with you again. Of course. So, we've got so much to get into today and of course we're going to start over with gold. I think our last conversation was all the way back last September. So, so much has been going on with gold. We've got a lot of ground to

cover. As I mentioned, you've told us, I think over the course of a number of years, that gold is currently in the third leg of a secular bull market. So, I thought I could start with that positioning and just get your your updated take on where we're at with gold. I imagine we're still in that third leg, but maybe there's nuance to add. Well, Charlotte, you have a great memory. So, I think we've um we've had interviews going back probably like five or six years. So, uh, and you're exactly

right. That is something that I've been focused on going back over 10 years. And I think, you know, when all is said and done, if you're when you look at the chart of this gold secular bull market, right, it's going to be a classic textbook pattern. And, uh, basically this started around 2001 2002, ran up to 2011, then pulled back and did a uh, the consolidation. And the textbook says ideally you do a 50% retracement of the previous gain made. And that's exactly what it did. Um, which ended on December

31 of 2015. And we're now in the third leg. And this is obviously going to be another multi-year leg. It has been. Um, some people think gold has reached its peak because it's breached 3,000, but uh, I don't think we're even close. Uh, the third leg is when it delivers the greatest returns. So those who think they've missed out, I don't think that's the case. Even though of course it would have been nice to get in at a thousand, but uh we still have a ways to go and eventually we'll know when this market

is through because that third leg ends up in a in a tremendous parabolic blowoff to the upside and uh we have not gotten there yet despite the great performance for the last two years. Yeah, I think it's great to get that context and it's good to know you'll know when we get to that peak. will be very clear for us when we get there. So that's important to note. If we look further Oh, go ahead. No, I was just going to say there's another thing that's the old uh you know it's a old

truism. The amount of participation by individual investors is still minuscule, right? And classic bull markets and bare markets are always marked by participation levels. And what I mean by that is when everybody that you know is is talking and and buying into gold and silver, that's when you have to start asking, okay, are we at the top? But despite gold's tremendous uh returns and and performance for 23 years, that level of participation is not here. As a matter of fact, I think it's

historically at a low level. It's really like 1%. So for the retail investing public, so just that classic, you know, contrarian they call it, um, we're not there yet. Yeah, absolutely. I can tell you with great certainty that not everybody I know is is interested in gold right now. So we'll we'll keep waiting for that. And that ties into another point that I wanted to go over with you. I wanted to ask about the interest you're seeing from your customer base right now in gold and and

any trends that you might be seeing there. That's uh great. So what I've seen is I think we know on the big macro picture the the real drivers for the gold price um is central bank buying uh sovereign wealth funds and extremely you know well you know well capitalized groups around the world it's not individual investors um therefore you know I would actually say from the our experience looking at the general retail client base it's kind of flat for the last couple years right it's not growing

It's not shrinking, but with the performance that you see in the market, you're not you're not seeing what you would thought would be a stepped up interest and demand. Unlike back in 2004 and five when gold was in that leg of the secular bull market and it was rising at a nice clip, you saw a lot more retail interest. So, you know, again, retail investors are not driving this at all. Um this is being driven by very big investors and I said like I said central banks. Now on the retail

side it falls into two camps here. The uh the we'll say the highly the ultra high net worth and high high net worth folks they are buying. Um I think the middle and uh and let's say less well capitalized investor is uh participating at levels that are really lower than they did over the last 20 years. Part of that may be economic stress they're under and I believe that is the case. I be believe a lot of the middle class is is really under great economic stress. I've seen I I would believe more net

selling by them and I believe that's to you know to cover living expenses. Um but the high net worth folks they have they're they're coming in. So we're seeing actually probably fewer tickets trade but much larger than historically we've seen. very very interesting trends to note there and it does make sense I think with what we see going on in the world. On the note of Neptune and what you're doing right now, I know you have a new strategic partnership and I think that kind of ties into perhaps some of

these trends. I'll let you explain it because it's a little bit complex, but can you can you tell me what it means and why it's important? Well, thanks and I think it's important. So what I've always looked at the market is uh most precious metals dealers, right? They're dealing with individual customers and those customers are generally pulling money out of uh brokerage accounts um or their banks, but a lot of it comes out of brokerage accounts because they've made the discovery through their due

diligence that they want to own the actual physical metal. They don't want the counterparty risk that's associated with a tra exchangeraded product or fund. Um, a lot of times it gets a little um, adversarial with their adviser because they they want to buy the physical metals. The adviser wants to keep them in a ETF and you get and most times they're successful keeping the investor with them. Um, they don't want to lose those assets, right? That's how they earn their their living, but

sometimes those clients do pull that money. Now, our vision or my dream has always been to get into that bigger market, that mainstream. So we've built the technologies that now advisors that choose can buy physical medals through us and it's not a referral program. This is these positions are then reported directly into the systems that they run their business on. So there's these what they call um software packages for wealth advisory firms and they pull in the positions that they buy and and

trade whether through their other custodians like Schwab or NFS or or Persing and we're just another um custodian and now it all comes into their their software that runs their business. So there's that single snapshot of all the client positions, their stocks, their bonds, and their physical metals, and they get to keep their AUMUM, right? So I believe it's a a win all around. The CL they don't have to fight the client when the client wants to own physical medals. It just becomes a normal part of their trading

and their business. And I we believe that's a big milestone because that was not available prior. And uh you know I believe that's obviously where the much larger uh market is and potential and as this market as the as the public will eventually get into this market in a big way. I think we're well positioned now to serve those folks in what we'll call for lack of a better term a mainstream standard um investment advisor managed account. That's really interesting. So, thanks for going into that. And it does

seem like you'll be positioned when we do start to see more of that that interest come. So, really good to go in with to that. We'll check in with you on on how that's progressing and maybe the interest that you you see there the next time we talk. I want to also of course talk about the drivers for gold right now. So, you mentioned earlier in the conversation central banks are important and we've talked before about how that's related to currency devaluation. So I want to ask for you is that is that

still in the driver's seat here? I know there's a lot of noise right now about tariffs and other developments. So how are you seeing it? So again, you know, I like to look at it's great to be able to look back on a long track record, a long history. So this is a 23 plus year bull market and there's always, you know, gold has generally been going up. Of course, there's times it pulls back a little and consolidates, trades sideways, but we can see that, you know, it's been it's been rising um at at a

great rate for over 23 years. I think a lot of individual investors aren't aware that the rise in the price of gold, the performance in gold completely blew away the S&P 500. So, for those that think that, oh no, but the stock market outperforms, that's not the case at all. Um and it is a little sad and disheartening not to see more investors take at least a 10% position along with their stocks and bonds. But so what do we see? There is always a reason that people will who don't go in will say

well gold is just now rising now because of tariffs and once the tariffs get worked out well gold will go down. I mean for these 23 years there's always been those well it's just going up because of this. At the end of the day, the world is a wash in debt that is unpayable. That there's only two ways out. You either default and as long as you can print money, you don't do it or you're going to inflate your way out. And that's what countries have done throughout all of history. So, I think

it's crazy to to to bet against that somehow after 5,000 years of human behavior, which is always the same, that it's going to be different this time. And regardless of how, you know, we may be enthused about changes in administrations and such and some of the good things they're doing, the level the staggering levels of debt are and and the ability to to correct it is is not possible, right? The dollar will devalue. And there's also remember gold moves on macro matters which are unlike

stocks, right? Stocks are actually much more simple, right? you take like stocks in like a uh say Tesla, right? And you're going to and they'll forecast on, you know, what what are sales going to be and are we in a recession or are we coming out? Will there be more money to spend on cars? And it's much more simplistic. Gold is moving on big macro matters and a lot of it there's a lot of black swans that you can't forecast happening like as we speak, right? Just a couple days ago, you had a very brazen

attack on Russian um strategic bombers, right? Which is very destabilizing and global instability will drive the price of gold. But that's not something you can forecast. So I would say we are in a world that's in the midst of change, recalibrate, calibration, reset, whatever you want to call it, new alliances, new enemies. And in that sort of chaos, that's where gold thrives. So, you know, I think it we're in a in a great position, those who hold gold. Um, and I do not believe it at it's at its

top. And actually, I don't see anywhere in the near to, you know, intermediate term where things are going to settle down and uh everything becomes amicable and uh, you know, we just go to normal trade without the the tensions and the problems we're experiencing right now. Yeah, it certainly doesn't seem like these things are going to settle down anytime soon. And really right now, it feels like the debt is in more focus than usual as we have this big beautiful bill at least trying to make progress.

We've got that turmoil in the bond market. So, I wonder if I can get any more comments from you there on what we're seeing and what we should be aware of as those things make progress. So, that's a great point. So, you know, you're seeing the probably the same news stories and headlines I am. you know, now they're saying that the big beautiful bill actually adds um two and a half trillion dollars of additional debt. So, I think the problem is the country is addicted to debt, right? I

think the amount of so-called savings that Doge was promising and and maybe seemed uh made people very optimistic that the debt could get under control and we could start paying it down or at least not adding to it. Um it's not panning out, right? There's not that level of savings and the economy needs there. This is an economy that's been propped up, I'd say, artificially by debt by taking money from the future in order to prop up consumption and uh today that it has to continue and I

think the big beautiful bill is proving that. Um I actually I don't fault because I don't think the the country can survive without that money getting pumped into it. Right. the the amount of unemployment and contraction that will come about without this continued adding to the debt um and flooding the market with this with the money um you know is something that no one could withstand. So it goes back to the point regardless of what the news stories may sound like and optimism the dollar will continue to

devalue for um as far as I can see. Yeah, I think that's that's definitely the message that's coming through to me from a lot of sources and I wonder if I can get your thoughts on how inflation plays out in this scenario. I know people are often watching closely the Fed and and what they're going to do. So any thoughts you would share on that note? So eventually I think we will be having in you know inflation will be rearing its head. We know they manipulate the statistics a lot, right? For how how

long for over a decade they were downplaying the real levels of inflation. Um I think it's just inevitable. You know what is inflation? It's you're losing purchasing power. So if the dollar devalues, you're going to have inflation. Um I think bond yields will be higher in the next couple years, right? Um that's just the case. I think the world is losing its appetite for buying US debt. I think the move by sovereigns and central banks to gold is uh you know is dangerous to um you know

to our inflation right if uh in order to attract investors will have to offer a much more attractive yield. Um if you look at the bank of international settlement right this is a big event where they've made gold a tier one asset right before that it was basically cash and treasuries. So now gold is at that same stature. So if you're a central bank somewhere in the world and you don't want to be buying US debt and with all the risk that they, you know, probably rightfully see, they have the

option to go into gold and it has the same status as cash and short-term treasuries. Um so with that kind of with those kind of headwinds, I think we're going to be seeing inflation and we're going to think see higher yields. Um and we're going to have a lot, you know, a lot of the pain that goes along with that. Yeah, and and certainly you can see how it all comes back to gold. So, we've we've talked about your longer term outlook for gold, which is bullish, of course, heading into well, further

into 2025. How do you see the price moving? Of course, we have ups and downs, but any any price call that you would make? Yeah, of course, we always, you know, as you've since you've known me all these years, um I don't put targets on dates of when it's going to hit. Um I but I've always been comfortable saying that in the intermediate to longer term it will continue to appreciate on the short and sometimes even intermediate. That's kind of a tough call. Um I do believe we'll

we will end this year higher from here. I think 3500 is kind of a realistic target especially with the level of volatility and uh you know all the flash points around the world. Um and I and I think that's kind of a safe a safe call. So, um, and I think, you know, I think we're in after we did that multi-year consolidation. And again, yes, we've been in the third leg, but the third leg is basically going to be more up years than down. And I think this year and next year will be two up years. I think

that sounds like a a very reasonable outlook on on gold. So, thank you for that. And I want to make sure we look over at silver as well. Usually, we check in on what's happening with silver. I know people are are looking at it and they're wondering, okay, gold is moving. When is silver going to stage a catch up? So, what are your thoughts there? Sure, there is a lot of interest in silver. When I talk about some of the larger retail investors, there's there's a lot of interest in silver. Um, you

know, the the conventional wisdom and I don't disagree with that is that silver has is like a coiled spring and there's a tremendous amount of upside. You know, a lot of people will look at the gold silver ratio. um it was over a 100 you know it's just a little bit below 100 right now but still historically that's very high you know historically they say it should be more in the range of like 40 so either the gold comes goes down a lot or silver has to catch up I think it would be more obviously silver catching

up from the sentiments that I've expressed but that could take longer than some folks may realize and I think an important you know one of the reasons why is as we said The biggest driver for buying gold is we'll say the central banks and the big sovereigns. They buy gold. They don't buy silver, right? The BIS, the Bank of International Settlement has not made silver an asset, right? That you can hold. It's definitely not a tier one asset. So therefore, you just look at who the buyers are, right? So I think you know I

think silver will get pulled along but I don't think it's ready for that breakout where it kind of closes the gap and goes from a you know to a silver gold silver ratio more in line with historic numbers like 40 to1. Um I think it'll stay as it is. I think silver will appreciate but I don't think investors should get frustrated. Um and I know many are that it has languished and you know and and been so far behind gold's move. I think its time will come. It may not be for another, you know, it may not be for

another two years, but again, the way the world is, it could happen tomorrow. Um, but I wouldn't fret, right? If you own silver, you know, I I would say hang tight. That's my personal opinion. Um, I do own it myself also. And I do expect a uh, you know, outsiz gain from it on a percentage basis. But then again, that doesn't mean gold will be left behind, right? I think they will both be materially higher over the next several years. Yeah, I think that's a lot of really good information and people are

wondering I believe right now. Okay, so is silver a better buy than gold at the moment and it sounds like maybe you just need to figure out what is your timeline and where do you want to focus? I would agree. I also say I would I would take a position in both as long as you have the resources to invest in both. Um, you know, I would say gold is still the foundational metal to the precious metals portfolio. Um, but you know, so you you kind of build a little diversification to the two of they always say, you know, you got to have a

strong stomach. Silver, you know, it's it's much more volatile than gold. You got to be willing to hold tight longer. Um, but I believe, you know, it will start to appreciate. Um, and when it does start to move, when it starts to really break like 35, which is could happen this week, you know, that could be a trigger where it starts to move uh much more aggressively. And when silver does do its breakout, I believe you're going to see big days and big percentage gains, you know, higher than we've seen

even with great days with gold. Yeah, we really are so close to that $35 level. So, we'll keep an eye on that and see how it goes. Aside from gold and silver, we usually also spend a little bit of time on platinum, maybe palladium. And platinum is one I've been pretty keen to ask you about because it's been rangebound for years, but it staged a little bit of a breakout right now. I know it's been in deficit also for years and it seems like people are starting to get a little bit interested. So, I

wanted to ask if you are seeing interest from your customer base and also your thoughts on on if we are really going to make a bigger breakout there. So that's great. You're right. Nothing has lagged more than than platinum. Um I mean this is over a decade. It just languishes. And you know, you know, we do have the product of PMC ounce. So it's a component of PMC ounce and it's been the one that hasn't been much of a help. Um but um but you're I'm not seeing interest in retail but from what I

understand we're there's starting to be accumulation by some sovereigns of platinum and that go that falls in line with the you know what's going on geopolitically where you know trade is breaking down and trust and I believe that it's being accumulated because it's considered still an important uh critical metal and it's in short supply. You know, it's a very thin market. And I think that's what's starting to drive the price, which of course is actually a better

reason than maybe if it was just an emotional response and a lot of retail investors started moving the price. So, it, you know, worth taking a look at. Um, it's languished where it has for so long. I think its base, you know, the base is coming off is extremely strong. Like, there is a lot of support. Um, so I I don't think it's uh, you know, it's not prudent to maybe take a little bit of silver. Again, if you have the resources to even diversify a little bit more, you know, and I'll just say, you

know, that's the whole point of the PMC ounce, the precious metals composite, that you're actually buying a position into physical gold, silver, platinum, and palladium. Yeah, it's a very interesting product, and that's why I always make sure to bring up platinum and palladium to you. So, very useful. And I will I'll throw in one question about palladium. It's also been a little bit stuck. Is there anything there that you're seeing that is of interest that we should know about? I think it's

really just trading just like um uh platinum right now, right? So um several years back palladium had a very aggressive powerful move, right? Um then it pulled back and now it's been trading just like platinum. You know, they're very close in price. um you know it it's ma its main use is in pollution control right in vehicles both diesel and and uh and gas engines and they are you know you can use them um you have to retool if you switch from using platinum palladium and vice versa but right now

they're kind of you know they're trading close close in price and they're behaving pretty much the same so I think maybe going forward instead of one breaking out and completely leaving the other behind like palladium did, you know, 5 6 years ago versus platinum, they're more likely kind of to trade um in tandem. Um platinum though for individual investors, if you're not buying something like the PMC ounce is productized more, right, through different coins and bars. So it it it is

lends itself um to be more easily owned um and a little more few greater options for an individual investor than palladium. Okay. Well, thank you for for humoring me on going through all of those ones. They're similar but different. So, I think it's worth talking about. And now that we've made it through all the those precious metals, I will let you go, but is there anything else you would add for investors that you are watching or think people should know about at the moment? Yeah, it's Yeah, I don't want to be

redundant. It's And we've been doing this for so long. Um, and the upside of it is, you know, a lot of, and I'm sure a lot of your audience, you know, they've heard other interviews, they've even, you know, from different folks. And the message for gold has really been the same for a long time. And that shouldn't, you know, frustrate people. What it should be is actually the positive is the drivers that were pointed out years ago are still firmly in place, right? So, it's not like we

have to look for the next event. the the you know the foundational things the deterioration of everyone's currency whether it's the euro or the the you know the Japanese yen or the US dollar right they're all devaluing the world's a wash in debt none of it is payable right what you look at is you know there's been analysts that say as the war as the world um you know sees that they can't get out of their economic mess and they have unstability instability at home and a disgruntled

population, you know, they'll take you to war. Well, that looks like that may be playing out because we see for some reason Europe is like anxious to get into a war with Russia and you know, is that just going to be a cover because of their failures uh you know, with their policies both economic and you know, and and you know, with migration and such. So all these things, these things that were more forecast years ago are actually all coming into play. So those folks that forecast this over the last decade and more, they're

right. The mainstream was wrong. The mainstream didn't see any of this coming. They did. Um, and it's playing out. And all because it's playing out, it's got to play out. And it's going to play out over a number of years. And at the end of the day, the one asset historically that will thrive and come out the other end intact is gold and silver. You can't say the same thing about, you know, stocks. A lot of companies may not be viable or may not even be around. Right? Again, it's real

simple. Gold's been around for 5,000 years. It's always retained value. There's been millions of companies that have come and gone in those 5,000 years. So, I think at least a reasonable piece of position should be in a portfolio, you know, alongside with the other stocks and bonds. But um I actually think I sleep mo most comfortably uh regarding my precious metals, my physical metals again, not derivatives, not proxies, but actual physical metals um than you know standard stocks and

especially um not fixed income products. Now absolutely I think that's a great place to wrap it up. It may be repetitious but I think it is as you said this is all playing out the things that have been discussed for years. So, thank you so much for coming on to go through this and give us a recap of what's going on right now. Thanks, Charlotte. Great being with you again. Of course. And once again, I'm Charlotte Mloud with investingnews.com and this is Chris Blazy with Neptune Global. Thank

you for watching. If you like this video, make sure you hit the like button and subscribe to our channel. We'd also love to hear your thoughts, so leave us a comment below. [Music]