[Music] I'm Charlotte McLoud with investing news.com and here today with me is Ben bold director at Ocean wall where he runs uranium research thank you so much for joining me great to have you here back from the showy back really good to be speaking with you and it's it's been a little while since we had a chance to C catch up I I apologize for not bringing you one sooner I hadn't realized quite how long it could be but it's been about a year and I think where I usually begin these conversations is


by asking you where are we in the uranium cycle and I thought since it's been a while that was an appropriate place to start so if we could just start with a brief broad look at the sector and and where you see it in the cycle sh it's definitely come on a lot uh in the last 12 months um I didn't think that I'd be sh here with everything that has happened uh especially with the movement prices and still be as optimistic around not only underlying Uranian price but also Associated equities as I am now and I


think that we've definitely moved on um since we last spoke so we maybe Look Backwards 12 months um and everything that's happened typically produ ction um the maybe a lack of the supply side response and um especially some of the larger producers uh not meeing targets although you know some have so I would say that you know we were in the second Innings 12 months ago where third now I think that the one thing that that the remains to sort of kick us onto those latest stages is we're still waiting for


sort of mainstream institutional Capital to come into the sector um it's definitely played role but it's not um it's not of the levels that we think it can get to and it's not the levels that it certainly was back in the previous ball Market in 2007 but we moved on um not only in terms of obviously you know just where we are in the thesis but obviously intelligent prices as well I think that when I first started to look at uranium back into 201819 the your Baseline Al was uranium


uranium quite straight below the cost of production so that made it quite a simple sort of Supply demand uh or you had quite a strong economic argument as to why uranium prices were going higher with us sort of $9 P pass today the the cost of production aru doesn't quite R Supreme as it apps did back then but as I say I'm surprised that sort of how bullet um I made and we were made option our prices despite the fact that that they're are pre bought five times since the lows of of 2018 so A lot's changed


but um a lot remains I think in this uh in this full market for sure okay we're we'll go deeper into many of the topics that you brought up there but I think it's really good just at the start it helps me a lot to get that broad overview of what's going on so where I thought we could go first is a piece of a little bit of recent news so we've had the US ban on Russian uranium Imports and the market at this point has had some time to digest this news and I've heard a lot of varying


opinions on how important this is for the sector especially given that the waivers will be available until the end of 2027 so starting there I was going to ask you you know how how significant is this really it's incredibly significant it's probably one of the most significant things that have happened since since the invasion of Ukraine already this sum that no it emerged straight up to the invasion of Ukraine because you know the US in particular was was sanctioning pretty much every anary commodity coming


out of Russia um oil gas Metals uh you know Timber uh pretty much every commodity major commodity that's coming out of Russia had been sanctioned other than uranium so even in the sort of weeks and months that the follow February uh February 2022 um you know was spoken about and really I think that we actually spoke about this last time but you know there was a lot of sort of uh maybe false headlines that were making their way into mainstream media that were perhaps not telling an accurate story as to you know the actual ping of


ir the actual bad it was happening now fast forward to a few weeks ago when you know the the ban was signed into law by President Biden you know that that's obviously been coming for for a long times as I've said but ultimately for us at Ocean we we maintained the beliefs that preactive sactions or retaliatory SS for Russia was really going to be the uh more significant event now I'm not saying that the US B is Optics or just purely Optics at all I think that it really is um it's it's a it's a very


powerful mechanism by which the US can start to reinvest and incentivize domestic production in IC investment into the fuel cycle whether it's mining 308 or conversion enrichment fabrication Services the one thing that I observed all is that it can't be bad for Uranium prices I think that the Market's still juggling with the fact that Al sort of juggling with the extent of which it's going to impact different parts of the fuel cycle um I think ultimately you know conversion and Rich are going to be


the more heavily impacted uh components of the fuel cycle as opposed to u38 but but there's there's a lot of different things that could happen and there's a lot of things that aren't quite clear yet um you know I'll talk about a few of them the wer processes which a lot of attention and sort of whether this is going to be a pretty straightforward process now there's a there's a Ving quot around you know how much e could enter the US um and I think that's a massive


restriction in terms of what can come in can come in from Russia But ultimately you know it's going to be a question of you know put out a note to CLI about a week before the news broke around a false meure the potential of a false measure and a preemptive sanctions and we saw that come out from 10x a few days ago and sort of reading between the lines and also you know reading some interesting stuff today but a lot of these us utilities have got 60 days to find five outting for these contracts to


get their waivers in Hand of the five to 10x so you know as as I say can't be back to uranium prices the extent to which it's going to have an impact on on the price of over time is pretty clear that that you know the US US utilities are going to have to find alternative sources of Supply but there is some uh you know there's definitely some gray areas in it so you know what constitutes alternative Supply um I think you've seen it in various other polies as well you know can you take a can you take


russan eup and put a different stamp on it and and make sure that it still has its way into the US and sure that's possible um but it's going to be very very hard to regulate one thing that is to ass sure though is that the doe is got a Monster job on its hands because it's going to be inundated with waer requests from various us utilities um pretty much all of whom are going to I short be applied for waivers now there obviously exemptions for people that have been able to find alternative sources of Supply um all


those utilities that you know don't run the risk of um closure which are the two sort of criteria that the DOE sorry that the US government have laid out for this F but you know I think the lot remains to be seen and we're going to find out a lot about in the next couple of months because we now what we've now got a timeline on it I think that Russia had have called the us as block slightly by you know giving uh you know implementing this 60-day time window um the US utilities to basically get at together


whether it's financing or getting their Petty FL together for wavers so you know we'll see but the uh I think the the underline point that com me back your questions right I think definitely we are on a countdown now with that ban and I think you just briefly mentioned the possibility of a Russian counter band so I wondered if you can talk a little bit more about that and and how much of a possibility that could be it's not a massive market for that I mean you know we're talking a billion $2


billion dollar a year so in the context of you know Russian oil Russian gas it's not a huge it's not a huge Market um but it's 10% of 20% of us electricity so it's 50% of their clean electricity so if you wanted to stick it to the United States it would be a great way to do it and you know our original view on this was what is the Russian incentive to keep shipping um EU to the US again it's not a massive sort of cash for that um and if you did want to you know if you did want to put the US in a very


very awward position this should be it should be an interesting way to do it I don't want a an ocean wall I know investors generally set you don't be proping off the closure of nuclear power PLS that's not the thesis here the thesis here is that we're in a long-term set all Market nuclear power and the supply the MS of Uranian don't add up to meet our demand so you know there's been a lot of of bells and whistles that have surrounded this trade for the sort of four years five years that I've been up


it um and this is sort of that next chapter I think also it speaks to just how geopolitical uranium is a commodity I've long held the belief that it is one of the most um geopolitically weaponized Commodities that you could have in the world um if if any of your listeners have not read uh marius's book the cold of War there a chapter on the calization of your uranium which really talks about this weaponization uh and how you know Russia might not have had the world's largest uranium ut8 reserves but they were you


know hell bent on making sure that they became the dominant force in Downstream inversion in richmand so you know there sort of there's a lie written in that book which says there's no point I warehouses sort of yellow cake the how be be used out this is what Putin's you know been able to do he's been able to position russer as other responsible part of that supply chain um I wrote a report last summer around sort of Russia's unsessionable position on the uranium Market I think that remains as


true today as it did there and I think we're starting to really see that play out now um we're starting to really see how un sanctionable they are um you know but back to your original question the possibility of sanctions from Russia I think that it's I think it's very very possible I just don't see the incentive for them to to keep uh sending this integral part of the US electricity uh sort of supply chain energy grid um I don't see the incentive there to keep doing that very very interesting and


continuing on down this path I was reading one of ocean Wall's recent notes where it talks about how Contracting from us utilities was pretty subdued in q1 possibly because they were waiting for some clarity on what was going on with Russia so we do do now have some clarity so I'm wondering what you see coming from the US Utilities in Q2 which of course we're we're in the midst of at the moment and of course what that could mean for prices I think that everyone been surprised ourselves included by the sort


of sub volumes in in term Contracting and you know term prices we'll find out the May term prices in a couple of days but I I think that I mean even already in the couple of weeks B we haven't seen a a knee-jerk reaction to teres that I thought we would and I think a lot of other analysts thought that we would um I think that there's a maybe a more important Point here as to why this isn't happening I think that it's to do with the naivity of fuel buyers um I think that if you look back at to the


20067 um you know fuel buyers could see there were the sort of the AP predator in the room with which The Edge funds you know really starting to gather momentum in terms of that curement of uranium and then you had a supply shot which ultimately took the price you know kicked it on into it into its late stages of that sort of $140 site um I think f is about time became slightly complacent and you know the example that we give is you know Traders or pumers that didn't trade the 2008 crisis today don't s look have that scar


tissue that perhaps some of the fuel buyers have today uh that maybe they weren't you know they weren around or they W they weren't um they weren't in particular jobs during the previous Spike s of 15 16 years ago so you know I think the fuel buyes perhaps waiting for prices to P down a little bit we've seen 3 to 500% moves across the fuel cycle uh u38 uf6 SL um so maybe they waiting prices to come down a little bit I also think that you know the argument that there was an outsize uh sort of contract


in q1 last year between cro and and ring utility um you know that that does hold as much weight now but the gr may as you say and you know we're well beyond halfway through the second quarter and some AI are subdued now it'll be interesting to see what that means for T prices um one thing that we are certainly aware of that this for by us utilities who are short uh us six and you know that's obviously it's it's been clear for a long time that that was um one of the major choke points in the


fuel cycle so you know I think that we're going to start to see a move modier both in ter terms of term volume and in terms of turn prices um sh buyers have got the clarity that they need particularly in the west now on us uh on the US's stance on the future procurement of Russian uranium so let's see what happens you know takes one one of those cico contracts like last year to to to you know cross to meet AR from you know this time last year so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw


W right and is that is that much higher in 2024 or is that a longer story because of course this is this is a story that will continue for some time you think that um volumes will you know it's it's hard to say it now because we're are 27 million pounds 5 months into the year I think T volumes will meet that same Peak as last year and sort of get close to replacement rate again I do think that's a multi-year uh uh theme I think that we are set up for a multi-year uh replacement rate from sting cycle and


ultimately you know that coupled with your outside fers such as you know by such as SC coming back into the market and they be a lot more active and we should maybe talk about that as well but we put out a note a couple of months ago just before the big move around the stel for Uranium is sort of beginning now and the SC for Uranium that doesn't mean there's an immediate attic it means that we're starting to see various parties compete for pounds and and also it brings up this point around the supply


side response the supply side response for Uranium prices have gone from 17 to 90 you're going to start to see Supply come in into the market I'm not talking about pound La ground I'm talking about traders that have held these positions for four or five years and who you know they've met their price Target and again goes back to this point that financials don't operate on the same time rizon the utilities do these guys have got quarterly updat R investors utilities don't utilities need to secure pound six


five 6 10 13 15 years into the future um so again you've got that theher conflict between these different then you've got producers also coming into the market and buying as well so um quite actual producers utilities or competing pounds at the same time and know I think I think pounds are starting to catch a bit or of a bit in the stock market we were speaking to a very prominant Trader uranium Trader yesterday around the liquidity of the market and he's been impressed by the liquidity in the market


they seeing proper voled in the term market and you know whereas before christas a couple of hundred th000 pounds could Mo price $510 um it's not like that today and I think that's not necessarily a bad thing um we we've never been the thesis has never been contingent or a 2007 S spite uh the thesis has always been let's see higher prices for longer um driven by this undering fundamental belief in nuclear power and a supply landcap that doesn't quite match that build so um so


you know I I don't think I think with with improved liquidity decreases the chances of these of these spikes of the that we saw in 2007 that doesn't mean that I don't think it's possible um I just think that we're having you know we're starting to see maybe a slightly more mature uranium Market than we've seen in in previous years right and before we had turned the camera on you were reminding me about the importance of differentiating between the termin spot market and


prices and I know you've gotone into that a little bit here but just want to check in with you and see if there's anything that you would add there that you want investors to be aware of I think so again this is the question we get alos which is PR Target and where's it going the disparity between spot and turn prices starting to narrow now that's obviously part to do with spot price coming up from 106 down sort of mid 80s and now sat just above 90 and turn prices have remained really R off


sort of 7580 l so I think one thing for sure is that we found the FL at about $85 l so you know for investors again whether you're go down the uh sequestration vehicle R of yellow pakes and sprouts and I think there's very limited downside on those with you know we maintain the belief there's an $85 floor in both in spots at around 7580 in term so I think the price environment is incredibly supportive for for investors at these levels um I think that we're going to go higher than the 106 this


year for sure I think that the the elephant in the r is is always going to be Kaz start all 3% of goal Supply and I I might sound like a broke a record on this but you know we thought that was a pretty good place to start when we started our work on this space five years ago um considering just how dominant it is in terms of production in terms of dyable production um you know we've got the Kaz 2025 numbers coming out I think they got a flatline pretty much you might see an incremental move


up but I don't think you're going to see an outsize increase in kazak production next year maybe 5% um and even that I'm not too sure where it comes from that sort of trying to tr trying to remain b as possible um you know what for sure is the 80 million pound Target 25 is not not going to happen um and then I guess the question that is you know the extent of the sulfuric acid problem where on the record is saying that you know the 20 the initial 2026 production um estimate for the third so pu acid PL


going to be delayed they delay 2027 I think that's going to go a bit later maybe 28 maybe 29 um I'll say I'm comfortable with 28 then you've got to reify the world's largest uranium Mar and then you've got to sell three years to Russia very longwinded way of saying the West is not going to see any of those pounds until 2030 203 two maybe um so so so because at prom numbers are always going to be a massive list for moves in the spot price in particular um you know cico as well


uh cako I think they they massively impressed the market with the numbers they able to produced last year they're currently on target for this year but the one thing that I would question with C would be purchase number I think the purchase numbers going to be much higher and that's more to do with Kazakhstan again because I think they're going to get less out of their in kij than they think um to the T of a couple of million pounds maybe so you know I think again it's throw back to the point around


repeating for Po in the market I think we're going to see produces back in the market towards year end I think there's a little bit of kicking the hand out the road from all of them uh sorry for both of them I both utilities and producers kicking the can down the road let's see how late we can leave it um and I think that you know it's all set up for a massive event to the to 2024 um in terms of AAL terms hes okay okay definitely I think we're going in directions I was hoping to ask


you about so you've gone over I think a lot to do with what's happening with kazano prong one other point that I wanted to ask you about is the company is reportedly even starting to look for assets outside of Kazakhstan so I wondered if I could get your thoughts on on that obviously that would be a process that would probably take some time yeah yeah I think there's a couple of possibilities here um the the first is probably the least popular one with Uranian balls which is they're looking to diverse why outside


of kazakstan um and and that's possible um I think the second is that you know they've got a lot of cash on that bance sheet they haven't really invest reinvested a lot of that cash in a way that I think some investors that hope so this is a way of them actually looking at at spending some of that some of that natur that balance sheet um and then the third is that they don't have adequate confidence or they they don't have uh you know confidence that domestically they're going to be able to


meet that production uh their contractual obligations now uh I think the most likely of the three of divers diversification outside of Kazakhstan but it wouldn't surprise me they're looking uh abroad because they know that they promis a lot of material to a lot of different people and you know I'm again on the record saying that um the wests would be you know Western contract whether it's European or us contract probably be the first to go I I think the China and Russia have got priority on any PS


coming out side for the next decade really um you know you've seen pretty regular visits from Putin from um president shei to Kazakhstan to see I mean he's like one of the most popular uh of global leaders in the world president m was over there as well recently um I think that yeah I I think that the most likely answer they're looking to diversify Kazan but given everything that that that we know our production issues and and um and also these outside ENT to the bites of China and Russia um it wouldn't


surprise me if they had start looking elsewhere to try and meet these goals and also put it offsp is V to be online this year and it's not and it's not going to be online next year uh uh so um you know some with po Els it was rapure as I understand it rupture is sort of big to supplement um those bed offo pounds by taking a lot out of n um which uh you know is fairly new news to me but um a lot of those pounds from ner are now ending up in Russian hands as well so we've always spoken about China as sort


of the demand outlier in the market Russia's played that game as well and again I don't think that people are talking enough about the Middle East as as an outsized bar of uranium or India either uh I think they're both uh massive bars and also chop the US in there now with the Russian ban um it's just going to add fuel to the fire and it's gonna again it's just adding more and more participants to this sort of scrib uranium that we think is going to accelerate over the next 6 12 18


months right and I think further on the note of Supply so we've talked about kind of what's going on with gazam prom and chemico and of course Everybody is watching them as the largest producers but we do have various companies around the world now that prices are sustaining at higher levels beginning to bring mindes back online so I'm I'm interested to know what you're watching most closely when it comes to that the yeah the number one the number one question that we get is is why is


this a different commodity story to anything else so we need a lot of copper and there's not enough copper we need a lot of uh nickel Cobalt these energy transition metal lithium and there's not enough not enough lithium you know commodity stories especially when it comes comes to the energy transition they've all got quite a um a saturated tone or a saturated rhetoric about them which is we need a lot and we don't have a nut so why is uranium different and it is that point it's because of the lack


the supply side response it's so unique in that prices are up five times and we haven't really seen a supply side response so you know last year I think the global annual supply of about 134 million pound added Global annual Supply last year and a lot of that is the low rning through this is M expansion for incumbent buys and also projects that have been in the pipeline like like I online this year um and some of the US ISR l Yow s to see wrap up a little bit this year take a million pounds for


example let's say uh U going to produce maybe a million pounds this year that soles 1.8% of the deficit alone in 2023 um we need all five kazak size mines to to supplement this deficit it's all good bringing online drips and draft in the US Peninsula Ur energy U onc uh you can SW hyro it um as well it it it's it's not um it's not enough it's not going to be enough you know what we're looking at uh a couple of billion pounds of uncovered utility demand through 2040 um I don't know where the


PS are going to come from and it's so rare to see that influency stories where you're just used to getting that KNE supply side response there's no uranium um there's no you know white there might be an oil time um there's not this abundant strategic reserves that there are in in oil um it's it's an incredibly it's an incredibly fragile Supply uh landscape and again I just don't see I don't see where these pounds are going to come from and now when you throw into


the mix that the world's largest producers every their own problems again you just sort of add layer on layer of this story you know one of the questions that I get is everything this Happ in uranium you know why why is the price not not B on doll a pound yet um and it's to good question because it feels like everything that could have happen has already happen but the truth is is that the supply deficit people talk about you know uradi of demand like it's just slat line it's in a flatline at 180 190 200


million pounds the reason we are in this trade is we're fundamental Believers in nuclear power nuclear power is going to grow Uranian demand is going to grow um five six 7% compound grow rates so you've got supply side as fra youve got the supply side as fragile as it is and you've got demand really starting to kick into gear um over the next decades and then you can throw smrs into that story you can throw again you know transition from underfeeding to over feeding to that story all these bells


and whistles on top and and you start to realize that that it is a unique quality story um versus versus anything else that you buy we well it's interesting that you mentioned that that idea that demand is going to Flatline because I find that it's a massive task just to keep track of all the different countries that are adding to their nuclear programs and things like that and as you men of course there's also smrs in there and conversations I've had around smrs are kind of like well we know that this is


coming but we can't necessarily quantify exactly how much that is going to be yet so what are your thoughts on SRS what can we start to know about the demand that they'll provide for uranium sure the the SMR story is is not a there is not a technological rlck yet I was in Atlanta a couple of weeks ago the Ro's SMR conference 700 delegates a lot of them on the development side I I was you know I spent I took 25 Old meetings with srr develop those people building these building these try to build these rors


and get get these projects um you know of paper designs and actually getting them built the number one bottleneck that we spoke around was Fuel and this is you know something that could really exacerbate the uranium supply side deficit uh the supply demand that is set um fuel is the number one bottleneck there's there's plenty of designs that are going to work the technology is there the technology is is has worked for decades and it's now by designs that make sense for customers and for investors you can't just rely on


the government to find out all these projects now I think it's going to be a combination of both but also the t o that went public a couple of weeks ago they assumed the price at P of Isa lower Rich uranium about four or five times the original that traditionally our BS today they assumed the price of pay would be around $7,000 a kilogram um you know based off current so prices uranium prices conversion prices we think it's closer to 35 $440,000 a k which means these these projects return negative IRS


they're just not economically viable projects at all um build ter power delaying the N nature Rea by two years because they could not find a a feasible source of fuel outside of Russia now there's various companies sort of you know looking at at addressing Supply deficit um I know that we're well documented in our work on on on uh conson me energy uh the ASP slope subsidy uh SX is also try to same thing CX is a billion dollar company now um so I think that you know we need a supply side response in in Halu the supply the


supply deficit that we forecast in Halu is going to draw that of uranium um halfway through the 2030s so you know I think that SMR 100% going to be reality you know I I'm again I a believer that a c 28 uh 20 old countries including the UK US Japan fing to Triple nuclear capacity can be really really really hard if not impossible to do that building traditional nuclear power the UK is is a case in point of that W really really bad at building them now the most expensive construction side on the planet I believe um $34 billion the


size well um 30 be power Sor theze well so we need a more scalable solution we need to apply production line economics to nuclear power construction and so you know you know technology you know it's going to have it's going to have its say on this the same way that it always does um data centers are also provide it beat new um Demar um uh demand outlier um in terms of our energy requirements these data centers have to come with their own power um they have to come with their own power uh options now they can't just


rely on the grid to supply these to supply the power they need um even just reading through Nvidia earnings last night you know data centers have got a massive problem and it's a power problem so SMR are the number one uh pretty much the only option these that these these data centers have at their disposal to be able to solve this power problem um so you need a fuel response and you need and you need you know that that's going to be the capitalist getting these slrs online right and I'm glad that you


mentioned the data centers because I had it on my mind to ask you about this conversation that seems to be developing around Ai and possibly using nuclear power to serve energy needs there and when I first started hearing this I think it was around the beginning of the year and I kind of dismissed it because I was sick of hearing about AI everywhere but it's sounds like it's a legitimate conversation to be having so did you have any more any more thoughts you would add there I mean I can speak to sort of my


knowledge on on you know the opportunity B nuclear in terms of data censors these data sensors require h of power and smrs are are just the best option for that they need Basel power um they need power that's not on the we glow and the sun shining and you know I think we're starting to see some crazy crazy numbers around you know five gws of additional capacity data centers in the US Alone um and again you know these data censors can not just rely on the grid to to to to support um their energy needs now one


of the really interesting things that we've SED to take a look at is actually you know re-engineering these chips using a different type of silicon um 50% of the cost of these of these data centers is calling um you know a company called verd for example that supplies just heating Solutions the data s that it's a$ 35 billion company last time I check um that's because silicon 29 which you know silicon 29 it's used on these chips why the is used on these chips actually has a negative speed around the Nuclear So


it's a terrible conductor of heat um so these chips overheats overheats overheat so we can find a more scalable Solution by silicon 28 which you know is supposed to he supposedly me to improve the conductivity of these chips thousands of b um again you know ASI is an interesting solution to that one of the only commercial producers of of Civic in 28 globally um that's a potential solution in terms of you know being able to bring down the power requirements of these data centers But ultimately


they're going to need nuclear regardless um and so again it's going to you know I think this is some one of my main takeway from the Atlantic H BRS was smrs are coming in necessity as opposed to so you know they must have as opposed to a NIC up now and with the numbers that we're seeing around um energy requirements um as a result of these as a result of these data as a result of the data center uh and hypers skat buildout um there really is only one solution because these companies also


have to beet their C's ESG goals you can't just be running all and gas CL necessarily you have to be meeting your ESG goals as well so you know how long can these things just be offset um you know we're going to need to build a lot more of them um over the coming decades and they're going to need to come there Al sheets out it's just not feasible to rely on on uh domestic rids to be able to support though not at the rate of which they being built I think that helps me put that out


to context so thank you for going into that and we've covered quite a bit of ground I think in terms of supply and demand although it it does feel like we've barely scratched the surface but because I don't want to keep you too too long I want to start wrapping it up and one point I want to make sure we go over is for investors so it's it's good to go over all the Dynamics in the market but if we look over to the companies where do you see the most opportunity at this point in the


cycle it's so I get I get two questions every day from all CLI which is you know how I missed the uranium thesis and by how where is the value ARR um I definitely believe that the the Uranian thesis is over the Uranian B is over I think you've got a long way to go um in terms of investment you know I still remain bullish on the stock price of uranium over the short medium term um I think that we're going to up sustained prices of over $100 a pound for the next decade so having some stock price


exposure from your chosen sequester whether it's Yellow Cap spot I think is still more than reasonable um I then think that you know a lot of the a lot of the miters developers um sorry producers and developers a lot of them are pretty full value um uh I think that you've got to be a lot more selective now again um you know also you know having a look at the way in which geopolitics is going to reshape the financing for these companies so you know us urum companies um uh that are going to get support from


from this uh three and a half billion dollars as a result of the US bam and Russian uranium look at us companies have G inv portfolios of large portfolios of uranium assets um it's very difficult to get exposure on Downstream um you know conversion you can get a bit of exposure from camoo but you know it's kind of a fraction of their bottom line um you Richmond again you've got silet for a billion dollar company now um on zero revenues so it's uh it doesn't come without risk um you


know asbi has spoken about um as something that we find particularly interesting cedus um is one that I've been watching every day since Russia's invasion of Ukraine um uh I don't understand how the long-term prospects for the company can be positive um you know again it's it's just 80% of revenues are un for Russia um so I don't see how uh long term it can it can be uh it can maintain its sort of its Cent valuation but I I think that you need to have a pretty Bal allocation across across that


Delta wildy spot price exposure be really selective with the development production space there's some names out there with which had an amazing run but I think are pretty much at full value um and then you got yeah youve got some interesting Downstream Place particularly on the enrichment on the enrichment side but again you've got to be selected okay I think that's that's always a great reminder and just before I let you go did you have any final thoughts that you would leave investors


with I always say that uranium investors are usually pretty astute and up with the market but if there are any factors you think people may be overlooking at the moment it would be great to go into those I think the W would have been in you know a new paradigm for for the market certainly in terms of geopolitics in that you know the market is bipa feels like more and more every day um it was a bated Market five years ago um and it's it's being exacerbated week on week um and we're starting to


see this real divide between the East and the West um in terms of production who's selling to who uh in terms of Power Construction who's willing to work where um so you know we're always keeping our geopolitics um um particularly from the largest players kind of on China Russia the US um so so again I would urge anyone listening to this to read um marius's book The Cold War especially the Chapel of the calization of uranium it will give you a really really um comprehensive view of


what it is that we talking about here around the geopolitics of uranium and it would also give you I think suff I confidence to go out and and to and to invest in this space because you start to realize where the opportunities really lie where the choke points are um um but but I I think that you know keeping your fingers on the he GE politics is important across the L Seas but you know as I said earlier it's it's become so geop weaponized this ly uh this state that um I think it's a bit


more of an outsight play on that but other than that um not much CH to add um you know we publish our research on our website on n repor on our website ocean.com we give out our research for free um some of our na reports for free so uh please feel free to to go and check those out okay very good thank you so much for coming on to go over Supply demand prices companies in uranium it was really great to have you to Charlotte thanks for having me of course and once again I'm Charlotte McLoud with invest news.com and this has


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