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 [Music] I'm Charlotte Mloud with investingnews.com and here today with me is Vince Lansancy. Vince is managing partner at Echo Bay, a professor at Yukon and publisher of the Gold Fix newsletter. Thank you so much for being here. Great to have you. Thanks for having me, Charlotte. I was looking forward to this. Thanks for having me. I've also been looking forward to this. It's our first conversation and it's an exciting time to be going over what's happening in gold, silver, and the

markets overall. So, lots to get into today. I thought we could start with a pretty broad question and ask you what are the key gold price drivers that you're looking at and watching right now that you want investors to to be aware of. Well, I mean, there are there are, I think, two major price drivers that investors would be concerned with. And the first one is uh the hedge for what's going on in the world and that driver is the geopolitics the re the new relatively new instability in the

relationships between the east and the west and so that would be your traditional uh reason to own gold. Uh the other reason is the very very likely resurgence of inflation, not tomorrow, not next month, but over the next five or 10 years because it's necessary uh to help retool our economy. The other the other reason to own uh gold the the other the other reason to own gold as opposed to actual macroeconomic drivers is well I mean it's related to the globalization or deglobalization situation but the world is ddollarizing.

We're going from a global reserve currency environment to a more multi-polar world and that's actually part and parcel of what's going on with the with the tariffs and the trade war. And as a result of that, the rest of the world is less likely to own our treasuries and they want something else to put their money in and they're picking gold. They're picking some of their own money, probably some of their own bonds down the road. Uh but right now they're picking the uh only stable neutral

non-counterparty risk asset. So for those reasons, as as an American investor, right, which is who we're speaking to, I think mostly, uh you would want to have a responsible amount of uh gold or a gold type of asset in your portfolio. And a house is not a substitute for gold. It really is not in this environment. So I mean, those are the reasons to own it. If you'd like, I can give you the current macro drivers that everyone's talking about as well. Yeah, I would love to go into that if

you'd like. Sure. uh well the the ddollarization is one so the rest so there's external there's external and internal internal reasons for what's going on in gold right the external reason is the world doesn't trust the US dollar as a safe haven as much as it did before and that's evidenced in two ways one is that the obvious signpost is uh when the Russian Ukraine war started the US reacted by confiscating, not just freezing. They Well, they they took their assets out of

the Swift, they took their dollar denominated assets, right? And uh uh can we give them back? We could, but you know, I don't think that that's going to change anything. You know, if I stole money from you, you'd be like, "Okay, I trust you now for giving it back. Thank you." It doesn't work like that. You know, uh kind of like we're not going to trust them to say, "I promise I won't invade another country ever again." you know same same idea you know um and and

that's the first reason so the first reason that there's a loss in trust is uh confiscation so why would I own a treasury the second reason uh for the loss of trust or let's say mistrust is that economically we're not as powerful as we were and as a result of that uh that our debt our deficit to externals is saying you can't pay off your debt or put it this way even if you We're going to pay off your debt. You could pay off your debt. We can't pay off our debt. We're not going

to default. We just can't buy stuff anymore. We're not going to Costco, you know, buying a patio set. We're paying off our bills. I mean, that's that's a situation. So, that's the external reason. Internally, we feel the deficit uh because government programs were spending too much. Government programs will whether it's done by Elon Musk or not, it has to happen. these things have to have to have to be cut. Uh whether whether we like it or not, uh at the economic level, our economy is offering

services that nobody really needs as much of anymore. You know, how many stock brokers do you need? How many insurance agents do you need? We're a very services service economy oriented, you know, uh situation. Uh and we need to manufacture again. So, uh, that means we need to, and I'm speaking literally here, find the industries that we don't need as much anymore and tax them and take that money and subsidize the industries we're trying to build. So, you know, like in the in the it's like

taxing cigarettes to build, you know, health clinics, you know, or or more appropriately in the 70s, we taxed uh manufacturing facilities because we weren't competing anymore and we took that money and we rebuilt it into financial uh industry. So, that's where we are domestically. We either have to tighten our belt or find someone to buy our bonds and it's probably going to be a combination of the two. those drivers, they're putting more and more Americans uh domestically uh into putting a little

bit of money into gold, but it's become more than a little bit money recently. Yeah, it's I think it's really clear from what you're saying. There's a lot of big forces at play that are of course developing from day to day. I also wanted to take a look, you've been writing a lot recently about the rise of of China and its role in the gold market versus the ComX. I know this is a really big topic, but I'm hoping we can go into that a little bit because I think it's

also pretty important to understanding what's going on with gold today. Yeah. Um, uh, again, like you said, it's a well-worn topic and people will quote you or give you charts or things like that and I certainly do enough of that on my own. Uh, if if you'd like, I can paint a very, I think, hopefully concise picture as to what's going on and how it's affecting us within gold and China. Yes, please. recent, thank you. Recently, um, uh, there's been a very the headlines right now as we're talking

about this are a lot of buying of gold in China. Uh, and and you'll you'll see that painted in the press in various ways. One way will be they're buying gold in China, they don't know what they're doing or they're buying gold in China. Uh, it's part of the trade war. And you know, the trade war, that's true. It is part of the trade war. Uh but this has been a long time coming and what I mean is you could see the world that we're in right now through the eyes of the China exchange which is the

Shanghai futures exchange and the Shanghai gold exchange that's like their physical exchange. So let's just look at the Shanghai futures exchange and it's competitor in the US to comx and they are competitors. Now, what I've noticed is it's not like China is being an upstart just saying we want to buy some gold. They're they're this is the this is going to sound alarmous, but I mean it. Uh we're in the final stages of a whole supply chain being taken over by China. And here's what I mean. China's

role is definitely growing in the gold market, not just their demand. uh their their Shanghai exchange for various reasons beyond the we're buying and we're selling uh for gold coming out of China is in the process of supplanting or replacing the COMX as the central hub for gold in the world not just locally and and that's not who cares right it's just gold right well that weakens the dollar not just because they're buying gold which we all are talking about now selling dollars buying gold But because

China is projecting the price of gold globally and dictating the price that you trade it at, there's a visible path uh that the gold market has taken over the last 10 years. I'm not going to do the whole history lesson, which I like to do. Uh but since 2013, little by little, uh parts of our supply chain for gold have been going there. So uh the demand is over in China. Uh, and then the banks say, "Well, let's move a vault to China." These are businesses relocating. So, if they want the gold in

China and I'm a gold salesman, I'm going to move to China. I'm going to put my vault in China. I'm going to put my office in China. Right? Before you know it, and before you know it, 80% of my business is is in China. And that's the supply chain. Pull it out of the ground, you refine it, and it finds its final destination. That's one of the most concerning things. not the supply chain itself. Economically, it's not that important in the big picture, but the the final part of the supply chain, you

know, out of the ground, makes its way to wherever it's going to go, whether it's in someone's vault or buried in someone's backyard, is the pricing. And that final part of the supply chain is a part of what keeps the dollar a global reserve currency. The pricing of global commodities in US dollars as projected all over the world is a marketing tool. It's one of the legs that supports the dollar uh the dollar's world status. Uh and our ability to project price globally in physical

commodities. So I'm speaking of gold here. So, if you I mean, you're too young for this, but the movie Trading Places, there's a scene where one of the guys says, "Uh, Valentine has set the price, right?" Well, the euphemism being that he's got the most information, the most power, and he's willing to say the price. So, he set the price. People look to him. Well, China is setting the price now. And when you set the price for gold and the US must follow, well, what you're doing is you're setting the price

for gold relative to the dollar. So when you or I go, well, gold's why is gold up today? The dollar strong and China is saying, we don't care. We just want the gold. And so the US is made to react to China now. And that's not really a good situation. Um, I mean I could go on and on, but to put it in in in tactical terms, uh, as China's demand pushes the price up of gold in dollars, then the dollar loses value relative to gold. Uh, there's a virtuous cycle going on in China, which makes it

of course a vicious cycle in the US. In this regard, from a business point of view, there's no way this can be stopped. At best, gold and silver become assets that share time, but we're in a global environment that's deglobalizing. It's really an economic divorce. So, we no longer dictate price of the things that you buy. They do. And so, we're going to have to at best share uh custody. I mean, tying this all back to uh to China's drivers, China's not just buying gold. China's not just replacing

the dollar. China's telling the world to replace the dollar because they're pricing gold for the world now. And that's a big problem. It's a big problem. It's happening. Yeah. I think you outline it in a a very clear way so that it's it's pretty easy to understand. I was going to ask you, not to draw you too off track here, but I was going to ask if you see this as a permanent shift, which it sounds like it it may be. And then also the implications for the gold price in this

scenario and and perhaps the dollar as well, considering it's it's closely tied in here. Well, why don't I start with the dollar? I think as time goes on, the price of gold will matter less and less to the dollar, and that's a good thing. uh for example uh the US needs to get its e economy fixed. So if the world used to trust us in order to get them to trust us again what must we do? We must become a manufacturing hub and that will be the reason to say you know what the US really is wellrun let me put some money

in bonds let me put some money in dollars let me take some of my money out of gold so the US is like a stock that's undervalued with regards uh to gold itself well there are various mathematical uh reasons that almost never happen you know uh gold can go to 10,000. Gold could go to 20,000. Uh I think it's really I mean I I'm not predicting price, but I do I do get projections right on occasion. Like the most recent one was uh tactically speaking I said that 3400 would have been a a call and I made that when we're

trading 3,000. But aside from tooting my own horn, I have no idea. I will refer to something that Michael Oliver has said. Um the price of gold when it has these runs you're looking for analog what what in the past informs me of the present and geopolitically nothing. It's the reverse of the 80s. You know in the 80s the Berlin wall came down right the world became kumbaya love each other globally and now it's the Berlin wall is going up. You know that's that's what's going on right now. And so and so it's

the undoing of globalization. At the same time instead of uh undoing manufacturing we have to return to manufacturing. And if you look at gold in that situation and you do an analog with the 70s coming back to the Michael Oliver point uh gold ran gold had two prior bull markets. I'm paraphrasing him. And those two bull markets absent all other information were quite simply gold went up by eight times uh what it did back then. So that puts gold's price target using a purely technical level of $8,000. Is that

tomorrow? Is that next year? No. It's probably going to be over a five or 10 year period. And I say that because because the US doesn't really care about the price of gold. This is a blanket statement. They care about how fast it gets to where it's going because if it gets up there too fast, people are starting to freak out, which is what's happening right now. It only draws attention. Uh so in the end, I think gold will be allowed to price uh what it's worth uh but at at a more slow

orderly pace. I hope that helps a little bit. That does help a little bit. I think that was that was a very good explanation. And so we've taken a look at what's going on in China and how important that is. I also want to look over at what's happening in the US because that seems to have been what's driving gold's recent runup. We've got these tensions between Trump and Powell where Trump would like Powell to lower interest rates. He's saying all kinds of things. Powell is seems to be holding

pretty steady. We've got these threats. Is he going to fire Powell? Can he even do that? So curious to get your take on that. and and the Fed's path forward in 2025 given all all of these things going going on right now. Okay, that's a that's a lot. But we've discussed this before, so I'm semi-prepared. The first part I want to do is I want to I want to push back on the media's connection, strong connection between Trump pal versus gold. No, no, that's not what's

happening. Uh uh and and I'm not I'm not saying you're wrong at all. What I'm saying is that the media is looking for excuses or reasons to say why gold has gone up. And let's face it, over half the media is not happy with what Trump does. And so we don't like Trump. We like Pal. Gold's up. It's Trump's fault. So I mean, you know, I'm not taking sides. I'm just saying that's what it is. You know, that's what we all tend to do. We all tend to uh uh assert our own

biases. Now, gold goes up $400 in uh in uh a little over a month. Was that Trump pal? No. The last $50 maybe, you know, but but the people who understand know that the Trump pal issue is a non-issue. And it's really the issue is gold's going up. Because the trade war, like it or not, who likes it? The trade war, excuse me, is an acceleration of what's been going on throughout the world. Anyway, so this acceleration makes people pay attention. Oh, look at that. They are selling treasuries. China is unfair. Trump is

being crazy. You know, all these things come together. It's like, well, politically I'm left-leaning and I don't like Trump, so I'm going to buy gold. politically I'm right leaning and I think China is really bad so I'm going to buy gold and so you have this you know this perfect storm it kind of unites the hate you know um but Trump and Pal uh that the reason gold's going up to paraphrase my friend Tom Lango the reason put it in one sentence uh the reason gold's going up is because

geopolitical and Trump pal is not geopolitical in that sense um you wanted me to to speak about the uh the tensions themselves. Is is that is that what you wanted? I think that's Yeah, if you can, I think that would be great. Yeah. Um Okay. So, a little bit more granular, but I think I think very focused on on what's going on. Uh this will be a little bit lengthy, so just cut me off. Uh I can't speak to Trump's ability or inability to get power removed, right? Uh I uh I think what uh Scott Besson

said today, I'm not a lawyer. Very, you know, very pointed statement to someone who asked him that question. But I can speak hopefully with some serious clarity on the two issues surrounding Pal's inclination to not ease rates yet. And that's and that's what this is about. Any other environment, Pal would ease rates. So is he anti-Trump or is there something else going on? And I believe there are two things going on and they're very clearly different from each other. All right. So first, right, let's

recap the obvious one first and for obvious reasons because it's one of the reasons that Trump has been berating Pal uh is the allegation that he is operating politically in not easing rates now, right? As well as in cutting rates when he did before the election. U and there and there's serious merit to this. I want to be clear about that. Uh I've actually gone back and looked at Fed Chair Burns at his activities uh with Nixon which are actually recorded uh literally like when when Nixon was

taping himself there are recordings of him with Burns you know saying hey could you lower rates you know that type of stuff. Um but you know Burns interestingly gave a lecture and wrote I'm speaking about influence political influence right Burns gave a lecture in 1979 uh and he wrote a paper on his responsibilities as a Fed as the Fed chair and in that lecture he admitted flat out to being politically influenced to being bullied to being biased and being unable to do his job. and Paul Vulker, the guy who raised all the

rates, he was at that meeting and soon thereafter with the full backing of Ronald Reagan, right, they were politically aligned, right? Um he raised rates and did what needed to be done, as painful as it was for our country. The point being is the office, the Fed office, while not legally political, is definitely political. Okay. um how to even answer a question about if he's politicized or not makes him politicized, you know. Uh don't think of it's the it's the don't think of spotted

elephants thing, you know, and like okay, I'm not thinking of them, you know. That's he's politicized. He has to be. So Trump is right. He's right. Uh and think about it. What Trump's doing is he's making it more politicized. You know, if Pal is politicized, he's like, "Well, I don't want to appease Trump." But there's a there's there's another reason, and it's a legitimate reason. So, I'm going to be taking Pal's side here. Forget the politics of it. There's

an economic reason for Pal not to ease. I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm not saying I disagree with it. I'm saying it exists and it's real. The other point, how do I say this? It's not understood that much outside of serious economic circles. And that's that's sad because it's not impossible to understand. It just doesn't get clicks. All right, it's very simple. Uh Powell is probably not comfortable. My goal right here is for your listeners to get it and not have to worry about

like, you know, is Palitical? Yeah, he's political, but there's an other reason to not ease. I'm not, you know. All right. So, hopefully I do my job here. Pal is not comfortable easing even if he did like Donald Trump because the situation we are in now is not normal right now. We've all heard that a million times. You know, if you don't mind uh if you don't mind Well, here we go. Here we go. In a normal stock selloff, right? We've all been through this. In a normal stock

selloff, people in the world, not just the United States, uh will take their money out of US stocks and put them in the safest haven on earth, the US bonds, right? And what you typically see in a stock selloff in a normal well functioning environment is stocks go down. It's very painful, but bonds are bought, so bonds go up. And as people go for safety in stocks being sold, uh, then they buy bonds. When the coast is clear, whether that be by the Fed cutting rates because people start to hope that the Fed cuts rates, right?

Or by the economy fixing itself, uh, people sell their bonds out, put them back into stocks. That's called the rotation trade. Risk on, risk off. It's, you know, Karate Kid stuff, right? That's normal. Right now, something very different has happened. Now, we may not see it on a daily basis. Uh but if you look at the data, you can see it. And whether it's temporary or permanent, no one knows. But here it is. Americans are selling stocks and buying bonds for sure. Fine. That's happening still,

right? But such a large percentage of our bonds and our bond market is owned by foreign investors. And when stocks sold off because of multiple reasons, whatever's going on in their minds, right? They believe those reasons are in play, exacerbated, not started, but exacerbated the tariff situation. The tariff situation exacerbated this, right? And those countries have decided that I'm going to sell my US stocks, but I'm not going to leave it in US bonds. I'm going to take my money out of US

bonds because I'm concerned about the whole situation. So this happens. They're taking that money and selling their bonds and bringing the money home. You're in Europe, right? Europe says they need to rebuild their own military infrastructure. You need euros to do that. Sell US stocks. Don't buy bonds. Sell bonds. Bring the money home to rebuild. Japan is doing that. Everyone China is doing that because they're in a trade war with us. Now, when you put those things together and

you're Jerome Pal, you're saying, "Well, the normal function is stocks down, bonds up. Stocks down, bonds up." And he goes, "Stocks down, bonds down." Wait a minute, that doesn't make sense. Stocks down, bonds down, and then dollar down. That's another conversation. But the dollar is weak, too. And so he says, "If I rescue the stock market, if I rescue the stock market by lowering rates, because of why the bond market is lower, it will only cause people to take their money out of the US

faster. So rescuing the stock market could really hurt the bond market. And I believe that the Fed put, we all talk about, maybe maybe some people don't understand what that is, but uh there's a price level in the stock market that the Fed steps in and rescues, right? The Fed put, they call it, uh the Fed protection, the Fed insurance, right? Well, I think the Fed put, the Fed protection has moved from stocks to bonds. So easing helps stocks, doesn't help bonds right now. And this whole thing is happening

because Trump has taken the uncertainty that was this big and he's made it this big. And that's fine. But pal needs to stand pat until there's more certainty. So I don't know if if do you recall a couple years ago when Liz Truss at Great Britain did her thing, right? Yeah. That that was an example we're going through now. Liz Trust announced what's called a mini budget, right? And the mini budget was we're going to simply we're going to spend more and we're going to tax less.

Which uh might work sometimes, but the moment she did it, the world said we don't want your British stocks. We don't want your British pounds. We don't want your British bonds. We want our money out of there. And everything collapsed there. And that damage was permanent. Meaning people aren't so trusting to come back. They've come back, but not as much. This is what we're going through right now. It's not a mini budget fiasco. It's not a that it's a slowmoving crisis and pal needs to keep

his powder dry. Uh now if the stock market goes below, let's say 4,800, that's a level that Michael Hart at Bank of America talks about, then he thinks Pal will have to cut no matter what. Uh but that's a situation. Pal's protection, love or hate Trump, is the bond market. And while he's negotiating with the world on tariffs, the world is pushing back saying, "You want to raise tariffs? We're going to sell bonds." And so Pal's like, "I gotta chill." And

that's the situation. So I think both are going on uh meeting both of these. I don't think Pal is intentionally political. I do think he has screwed up multiple times. Uh and in doing that, he can't do the right thing because of the legacy of the wrong thing. Uh wrong thing in this case being he cut too early. So hopefully that that's it. there's two things going on and I think they're both going on. That was I think a really good answer. It explained it very clearly for me. I think you really

pulled out the different threads there and and helped me follow them both down to to the conclusion. So, thank you very much for that. I wanted to touch I know this is another big question and thank you for for all the the patience with the big questions but your US economic outlook during all of this. There's there's a lot of big headlines going around about the economy, recession concerns rearing their heads, and I've seen comments that maybe it's something even worse than a recession. So, curious

to get your thoughts on on what you see coming. Yeah. Uh uh I think I think there are two risks. Of course, things could be fine, but there are two risks. One is recession and the other is stagflation. Recession risk is is is where we are now, right? Okay. Uh uh so there are there are two things that point towards we're on the path to recession. The first one is stock prices. Stock prices go low enough, I'm going to fire you, you're going to be unemployed, etc. Right? Tariffs go up,

trade slows down, it's too expensive, I'm not going to buy it. That's a little stagflationary, but the point is the first thing is housing prices are not uh going up anymore. Housing prices are actually there's a glut right now. And uh while while I won't dismiss uh the lack of housing that we do have, I will say this, someone who's smarter on this than I am, said all recessions start with housing. So we are on we're definitely on the path now for recession. Are we in a recession? No.

But they'll start talking about that soon, right? Oh, we already in a recession. So that's why uh you would want PAL to cut. So there's the recession, right? There's the recession risk and it's real and it's there. Uh the the second driver for the recession is and this is a little bit wonky, but but again I'm looking through PAL's glasses here. The data that he sees says no recession. Things are going fine. Unemployment is fine. Every time he gets an end of month

data piece, it says we're fine. But the intra data, intrammon data, the early signs of a recession are there. So all the shorter term data, the leading indicators for recession are saying, "Oh no, we're in a recession. We're going to be in recession." And so the question is, does he wait for the hard, they call it hard data versus soft data? Does he wait for the hard data to confirm it or does he get ahead of it? And my guess is he's waiting for the hard data to confirm it because of these other two

reasons we talked about. So there's your recession case, right? Um uh if he cuts, right? If you were to cut like right now as we're talking, maybe we wouldn't have a recession. Uh but we probably would have a lot more people selling our bonds. So which means we'd have no recession, but we'd have no credit. We won't be able to, you know, you're working, but your credit card is frozen. Same idea. Same idea. Um the other situation is stagflation and and and that I believe is coming.

Uh there's a worse situation than stagflation, but let's stay with stagflation. The stagflation situation is the hard data is right. We're going to a recession. The soft data is right. We're going to a recession. And Pal still doesn't cut. Tariffs hit. the price of things that you want to buy is 25% higher, 50% higher, 100% higher, whatever, right? And you're getting fired, god forbid, but you get my point. And you're getting fired. So now you can't afford, you know, the eggs, which actually they're

actually priced normally again. You can't afford to buy anything that keeps the economy going. You can't afford to do anything because you're unemployed. And there's your stagflation. Simultaneously, this is very real. We need to spend money to fix the manufacturing. So what does that mean? So while you and I are in soup lines, the government is spending billions on building factories to simplify it, on building, you know, infrastructure. And so that just drives the price of raw

materials up. So we can't afford anything. Housing gets too expensive to build. It's uh I called this the opposite of Goldilocks, the Goldilocks economy we had in the '90s. This is the anti- Goldilocks, you know, uh we used to have a disinflationary uh tailwind pushing things higher. Now we have an inflationary headwind, but it gets worse, right? I'm not even a doomer, but it gets worse. Let's pretend that the inflationary Let's pretend that the recessionary data Let's pretend that Pal

eases. Let's start with that. If Pal eases and we don't have a recession and the tariffs stay in place, what do you have? you have everyone has more money and those Costco patio furniture sets that we like to buy from China, well, they go up in price double and we buy them anyway. And that's more likely to happen than we know. And here's what I'm getting at. The rest of the world for different reasons is lowering rates. They're worried about recessions, so they're lowering rates. They're lowering

rates and we're not, right? They're essentially in a recession and fighting it. and we're on the cusp of one. So, what happens if we all lower rates at the same time and tariffs don't go away? Well, it's 1970s. You have a job, you know, but your uh gasoline is $10 a gallon. I'm exaggerating, but you get the point. Uh the point is there is a worse situation in stagflation, and that's recession. I mean a I wouldn't call it hyperinflation, but a re-spike or untethering of inflation. So those are

the three scenarios. The fourth scenario is everything is fine. And everything is fine if Trump and Pal have lunch, exchange, you know, flowers and uh the bond market stabilizes. It's really about Chi and uh uh Xi, I say, and and Trump. But that's that's the uh that's the outlook. That's the long form of the outlook. I think that's really helpful to walk through all those different scenarios and and see the different paths that it could take. So, thank you again for for going into that.

So, we've covered a lot of ground and I I won't keep you too much longer, but I did want to touch a little bit on silver since we've spent some time on gold and I know for many people in our audience, silver is a frustrating metal. People are looking at it and watching gold rise and the positive outlook for gold and wondering when is silver going to follow. So curious to to get your thoughts on the outlook for silver. Yeah. Um uh your your your framing of the situation is absolutely correct. Um

first off, the first commodity I traded, the first derivatives I traded, the first options I traded, the first time I made and lost a lot of money was silver. Made and lost a lot of money on the same day. Basically, you know, that's the way silver is, you know. Um, but you bring up an issue that people want answers to and and and I have answers, but they're not black and white. Uh, but they're I think they're correct. Uh, uh, within a within a range of being right and wrong. Look, today today's a good example of

what you're talking about. You know, um, gold is down almost $100 right now or last I looked and silver is up 3%. You're like, what's going on there? What's going on there is the world, not you, not maybe you, not me, not people that own silver as an investment, the world does not look at silver as a precious metal. I'm not going to say it's not. It is. The world tends to look at it as uh half and half because of the industrial use. And because of the industrial use, when there's

geopolitical unrest, everybody buys gold. and then silver eventually catches up and outperforms. The reason it doesn't go up right away is because well it is industrially used and if it's industrially used then you can't hoard it. You make more money by utilizing it and and spending it so to speak and it takes up more space. So the the more powerful people uh perceive silver as 80% industrial, make it 90% industrial, 10% precious. And those are the people with money. And those people say, "I'm going

to buy gold and I'm going to sell silver as a hedge." It's crazy. But think of it this way. It's easier to see this way. If you think we're going into a recession, what do you do? You sell copper because it's an economic metal and you buy gold. Well, what's that makes silver? Well, we say it's a precious metal. But it's so industrial right now that big players will sell silver and buy gold. And the reason I bring that tactical thing up is because what's happening today? Gold's

down 2%. Right? 2 and a half%. Silver's up 2%. That's crazy. Like we don't see that, right? That's because today someone said the economy might recover. Pal might ease and Trump is working well with the China stuff. That's the news headlines, right? Uh best and what have you. And so someone said, "I'm going to sell my gold and buy my silver back." And the market kind of jerked that way. But fundamentally uh fundamentally just you know that's that's what's happening today.

Fundamentally let's just say gold is money right um but silver is more um the thing about the thing about the industrial people where they get it wrong is that silver has been purposed industrially but silver and gold are both stores of value. uh in the fact that they're stores of value is that they're indestructible. They're unable to be synthesized and the inability to be falsified. I mean, maybe you could, but you'd end up getting caught. Uh the industrial aspect of silver makes it uh

a crit critical metal beyond uh the monetary aspect. And that will never be called critical publicly for fear of people hoarding it. See, they don't like people owning silver as an investment. It's a problem because it is used industrially in military in climatefriendly in renewable energy, there are growing uses for silver and and that's a problem. So coming back to when silver does what it's going to do, there is a price that gold's going to go to and people are going to say,

"Let's just buy silver." And you may have heard that before, but it's not going to stop for years, right? So here's what I mean. When silver finally goes up to its rightful ratio, you know, call it 15 to1, call it seven, just call it 70 to1. Let's get back to that at least, right? Uh when it goes to that level at these prices, silver gets to a price and then it goes from 80% industrial, 20% investing to 20% industrial, 80% investing. And that means that people that buy it won't sell it. So, it flips

to being too expensive to use industrially and too precious to sell anyone. So, it's embedded in the silver market on the upside at a price level. It's kind of like a call. It's kind of like u slippage. You know, silver's going to go one day it's going to hit some ice. Now, that's a story and people people are tired of hearing stories. So, I'm just going to tell you straight up. Uh, if you're a country and you want to buy a store of value, how many silver bars can you fit on a boat? The same

amount of silver bars you can fit, gold bars you can fit on a boat. Well, how much money is that? It's not enough money to buy silver. So, silver's going to take its time. If you're looking for an analog on silver, I would I would I would share this. Gold made a peak in 2011 and then silver followed. Um, silver reacts to gold in the bigger picture. So, silver will go up when miners go up. And I'm a person who is saying this to you u as a as a lover of silver. I own more ounces of silver than

I do gold. But I have more money in gold than I do in silver. But I'm waiting. I'm waiting. It's not a trade for me. If I want to trade silver, I'll buy SLV or PSLV. Uh but uh look, I think we have a ways to go for this to happen, okay? But going back to Michael Oliver again, there's going to be a point, and it's probably not too far off, where a 3% down day in silver will be followed by a 10% up day. I'm not trying to paint a picture for people, but that's it. I'm long silver and it

doesn't affect my net worth if I if it goes down and I'm happy when it goes up. That's it. Okay. I think that's that's a very fair outlook on silver. Really good to go into that with you and I think we can we can wrap it up there unless you had any final thoughts that you would leave investors with. Anything else that is on your mind or if you want to let people know where they could find you online? Uh nothing nothing that I add that would be uh probably helpful or instructive.

Uh but first of all uh thank you for having me on. Uh, where can they find me? Uh, the Goldfix Substack newsletter is, uh, VBL, Victor Boy Larry. You can just look goldfix.substack. Uh, and we have, uh, a veritable fire hose of content. Okay? So, be ready for that. You're going to get multiple emails, perhaps a day, uh, definitely a week. Uh the content will be very global, geopolitical, monetary, gold, and silver focused. So you'll get all you want uh from us there. Uh but you'll get a lot of emails. So keep that

in mind. Uh we're I think I think we're in the uh it doesn't last long these things, but I think we're in the top 10 uh for uh Substack uh what's the word? Uh hot newsletters right now. That's probably because of gold, you know, but uh which is pretty cool and I appreciate. So, it's goldfix.substack. Uh we'd love to have you on and you'll get a taste of what real content or precious metals is about. That's it. Okay. Well, well, very good and congratulations on the top 10.

I'll add the link in the video description so hopefully people can go check it out. And I think that's all from me as well. So, thank you so much for for coming on to go over what's going on in gold, silver markets. This is really educational for me for sure. Thank you for having me on, Charlotte. And uh I would look forward very much to doing it again. Uh now that we've gotten the first one out of the way, we could just have some fun. Thanks. Well, me as well. We'll be sure to have you back.

And for now, once again, I'm Charlotte Mloud with investingnews.com and this has been Slazzie. Thank you for watching. If you like this video, make sure you hit the like button and subscribe to our channel. We'd also love to hear your thoughts, so leave us a comment below. [Music]