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 [Music] [Music] I'm Charlotte cloud with investing news.com and here today with me is laen sard managing director at EMA thank you so much for being here thanks for having me on your Show Charlotte I enjoy it really good to be catching up with you in person this time this night correct yes and we're here at the New Orleans investment conference so I follow you on Twitter or I should be calling it X at this point and you're mentioning that when you're getting ready for your presentation you you Revisited the talk

that you gave in 2021 at this event and interestingly not not too much had changed so definitely the the massive debt problem that we've discussed in previous interviews and you you talk about this frequently has gotten worse and and yet I think the FED seems pretty pleased on its progress with inflation pretty positive about the economy so tell me what the cracks that you are seeing right now yeah sure so they as you as you know of course they're going to spin it that way because they're a

political organization and the the cracks that I am seeing is that while they you know and this is the pattern of the FED they tend to break things and then they um do emergency measures and get things back under control and then they break again and so the last thing they broke was they broke the no inflation you know condition that they had preo and you know Co came along they grew the money supply 40% and suddenly we had 9% inflation it was raging um and they realized they'd overshot on the

money Printing and they'd been too loose for too long they were still doing QE and buying bonds late into the you know once inflation was already going they were claiming it was transitory it wasn't and they tightened like crazy and they sent everything in the other direction and um and so that's the the regime we're in now where they have brought inflation down not to what they hop to bring it down to they hope bring it to two or below they're not there yet they're in the threes and there's some

indications that it's may be starting to turn back up but whatever um and you know what I see that that the bigger problem that I think the FED has is actually more at the United States federal government fiscal level and and this is what happened just in a in a nutshell when Co came along federal government spending really went up I gave a presentation at the show earlier and and that's available on my on my X feed that shows a chart which shows that Co you know pre-co the government was

spending about $4 trillion a year Co came along and that suddenly went up to 6.5 really really rapid expenditure growth obviously to counter a pandemic and an emergency but the thing is when the pandemic was over you would have thought it might come back down and it didn't it stayed high in fact it's gone up this year it was just 6.75 trillion and and so you know in an economy where the stock market is at record highs employment has recovered from the co dip and you know inflation has come back

down a bit we are still running very big deficits last year's deficit was 1.8 trillion and with the last 6 months annualized the deficit is now 2.4 trillion and so the the problem there is that that adds to the debt and so the debt is growing very rapidly we just cross 36 trillion and the problem with that is that with these higher interest rates that they put in place to beat inflation suddenly the federal government interest expenses gone straight up and so there's also in my presentation a chart and most people

have seen this chart that shows US federal government interest expense for the last 15 years and it kind of Trends nicely slowly up and then suddenly it just goes vertical and so we are now spending about $1.2 trillion dollar a year on interest it's more than we spend on defense it's almost as much as we spend on Social Security and and so that the interest on the debt has really caused the fiscal problem and so what that then leads to the the followon knock on effect of that is what I call a

fiscal Doom Loop or other people call it fiscal dominance um a lot of ways of looking at it but it's pretty simple you know your your um your interest cost is higher so it's a bigger number that bigger number goes into the budget your your tax revenues haven't gone up that much therefore your deficit is bigger how do you how do you take care of the deficit you sell Bonds in order to fund the deficit while the bonds go into the market for interest rates same amount of demand for interest rates more supply of

bonds oh how do you solve that interest rates go up oh but interest rates go up means the government's interest cost goes up deficit gets bigger and Rin squash repeat so it's it's a you know I call it a doom loop it's a vicious circle in the wrong direction which I believe will ultimately lead to the government having to say okay you know this isn't going to work we are going to Institute yield curve control or QE or we're going to buy the bonds because they're having a hard time finding

people to buy the bonds a lot of the bond auctions have been weak and the government you know foreign governments and foreign people aren't buying the bonds the way they used to net foreign buying has gone down consistently since 2014 that's 10 years of a downward trend of foreigners buying our bonds and you know we're going to pretty soon find that we're kind of like a third world country and and what this is put in in personal terms this is like somebody who has too much credit card debt and they

having a hard time making the interest payments the minimum payments so they go get another card you know and then they use they on that and they use that to make the minimum payments on the other and then when that gets bigger they go get another card and I me it's just you know you're using you're borrowing to pay off the interest on what you've already borrowed and it just can't go on forever I mean I I Define that as Stein's law which is something can't go on forever it's going to end and and it

appears to me like this is getting to the point where it's kind of getting critical and I think you know even I mean you've even had some pretty large high-profile um you know establishment people say you know we've got a fiscal problem here and you know so so then then that begs the question of what are they going to do about it and that's a whole another question I that was a long answer to your first question so I'll let you ask the second one yeah H that was really good though I think it really

set sets the stage and so I was curious to hear from you all right so we've got Trump has been elected and lots of lots of different promises and ideas flying around at this moment and including appointing Elon Musk to this efficiency Department Ro do yeah yeah and so he's Elon has said he can find two trillion in savings so I wanted to ask of course now that I hear these numbers that you mentioning that sounds like m uh but what are your thoughts on yeah so so this is great so elon's on the Spectrum

he's a genius he's done a lot of great things and and I have in some ways I have a lot of respect for him but in terms of his ability to be realistic and perhaps it's arguably maybe it's why he's done some of the great things he's done is because he doesn't even believe there are limits you know so he just envisions something and then he makes it come true um or tries to make it come true but I can say from my point of view and from an analyst point of view there's just no

way you can reduce the federal government deficit you know by $2 trillion you just can't I mean unless you want to go to all the retirees in America and say guess what we're cutting your Medicare and Social Security by 40% and you want to go to all the defense contractors and say guess what we're cutting your you know your income by 40% and even if you did that you would have an enormous recession and downturn which would then trigger unemployment and welfare and food stamps and I mean it's

it's kind of a gordian knot now don't get me wrong they will do some things that are positive and they will definitely be able to reduce the deficit somewhat at the margin I mean that you know but again one of the things I pointed out in my presentation was so the big four in in US government spending are social security Medicare defense and interest that's 80% so Social Security and that's kind of the third rail you know you touch that you're going to get a lot of seniors pissed off Medicare same story

defense now the military industrial complex you know now but they can probably go after that a little bit because you know they'll probably figure out a way to get the Ukraine war Tamp down and maybe they'll save some money there interest they can't really do that unless the unless the FED chops rates to one or two% and they they fund the whole thing at the short end that would help on the interest side um so the other 20% which is about $1.3 trillion you know even if they whack that by 30% that's

only 270 billion so you know the the government deficit last year was this year it's running at 24 and the first 6 months annualized so you whacked 24 by 2 280 yeah it helps I mean maybe they can Whack It by 400 or 500 okay so 24 becomes 1 nine it's still bigger than last year I mean I I guess the point I'm trying to make is they can slow it down reversing it and solving it it's going to be really hard and and they're going to get some eggs are going to get broken you know somebody's not going to be

happy either seniors or defense contractors or they're going to have to run inflation I mean the the way out of these debt cycles and debt crises is to either do a monetary reset or to run inflation really really hot and and if you run inflation really hot hotter than the the growth of the debt then ultimately your GDP gets bigger and it can support the debt so but you know you know you want to go tell this electorate that you know we're going to we're going to turn inflation back on again I mean

in you know four years you'll see a blue wave that'll make this red wave look small so I mean you know to my way of it the the system is broken the monetary system is broken the political system is broken and I think what's going to happen with elections for the next bunch of Cycles is people are just going to be pissed off they're going to vote the bums out you know and it's going to be okay so this time the red wins and the next time the blue wins and the next time the red you know because there's

there's no adult long-term thinking discussion about how we in a sane and fair way solve and address the problem and the way you solve and address the problem is you do you do a one-time devaluation like Ros did you do a monetary reset and you return the sound money and if you did that it would be inflationary don't get me wrong people would get hurt but at least you know it's it's like drinking I mean it's like getting sober you know you're drunk and you keep taking more alcohol to stay

drunk every time you hang a hangover take alcohol eventually you got to go cold turkey hurts really painful withdrawal symptoms but then once you're sober you're good you know and so I I you know getting getting out of sound money standard to me is the equivalent of getting sober okay okay and to be I guess to be clear on on timeline you do you see that happening or are we going to keep that's a that's a great question and I you know I wrestle with that first of all nobody knows right no yeah nobody

knows but I will make a couple of observations it appears to be getting more and more critical the lines are getting steeper you know on the debt and on the interest I mean and they're they're compounding and so that you know I would say it's it's getting worse and so I feel like this problem crisis is going to come to a head in the next couple of years they're pretty good at can kicking so I'm totally willing to accept the possibility that you know it's we're now in 2024 and I'm you know

thinking of this in fourth turning terms I I mean maybe it stretches out to 2030 maybe it's another five or six years I just don't see it going much beyond that I mean I think I think the me and it's really show it's actually really just kind of the math I mean when you kind of you know when you grow when you compound I don't think people understand the way compounding works and so when you compound your debt and you compound your interest um you know it's it's it's

really hard to get out of the Trap I mean think of the go back to the credit card the family with the credit cards I mean generally the way that gets resolved is they file bankruptcy you know and start over again I mean and you know I mean maybe the us is going to go bankrupt I mean it's extreme but but there has to be there has to be something very radical that takes place to restructure it and fix it and I think you know a very Visionary leader with a ton of Courage could maybe pull that off

but even that leader the people would scream and yell and so my sense is what will unfortunately happen is we will just keep running down this road and we will have higher and higher and higher inflation perhaps even something looking close to to hyperinflation and at that point in time it will be so bad and so painful and everyone will be so mad that they'll say okay I don't care how much pain it's going to take we got fix this goddamn thing and and I'm willing to get sober you know what I mean and so let's

go back to sound money even if there's a even if the first year of it is is awful you know what we're living in right now is pretty awful too so you see what I'm saying that's kind of how I think it gets solved yeah yeah I was asking you on on timeline a little bit because of course we've got this four years of trump coming up and he's kind of known for making some off-the cop decisions maybe maybe that could be a thing that he does but it sounds more like it needs to trickle down to

everybody and everybody just needs to together I think that's right I think that's right and I think it's it's going to be hard I mean it's um you know I mean look there I'm sure there people they're all jockeying for position in his future Administration and I'm sure there's some people in there saying hey look we got to just break the glass right now and take the pain um but it's scary it's very scary to take the pain and and you know the voters get to weigh

in every two years so you know it'll be interesting to see okay okay okay so that's that's kind of her backdrop for one of the big things that's going on right now I want to go over to gold as well it's where love gold so let's yeah and we we'll move on to bitcoin later of course as well but starting with gold so gold is been on a terar this year our horse we saw their pull back just after the election but we're already we're coming back and curious to get your thoughts on on

Gold's trajectory giving everything that's that's going on right yeah well it's a it's a great question so as we all know gold broke out it was gold was kind of Trapped in a Range so gold you know gold did extremely well during the whole Co thing my fund did well gold did well Etc and then when Powell slammed on the monetary brakes and stopped the growth of M2 and took rates up to 5 a half% um you know gold stalled right and it kind of stalled around 20 2070 and it was R range Bound in there from you know

20120 to really March of this year so that's three years I mean almost four years so um when it broke through 2070 that was very significant and that told you that we we're back into game on and and and the reason I think it did that was I think it could smell what I described about the monetary situation and so it knows even though they haven't started printing money again it knows that they're going to have to and it smelled it and that's why it went through 2070 squirted up to 2700 I this

27 25 26 this is just Wiggles because we're going and and one of the things I find interesting the reason the miners trade so poorly is everyone thinks this 27 is unusual and we're going back to to 2000 and then and just as a lot of people in the stock market think that we're going to go back to a deflationary world and you know inflation's going to get calm and the and you know the FED they're believing the FED propaganda that oh we've landed the plane and the 2% in sight and don't worry it's all

going to be good I think it's all nonsense I don't believe any of that okay and so what I think is going to happen is it's going to be clear that they haven't landed the plane it's going to be clear that inflation is still with us to a degree maybe not to the 9% area but but in the 3 or 4% area and and that you know and then and then ultimately we're going to have a monetary problem driven by the math that I just described about the fiscal situation and and that's going to leave the bond market to

sell off hard or something will break as it had as it did with Silicon Valley Bank and and the FED will have to come in with the monetary fire hoses and do the one thing they do really well which is print money and at that point in time you know gold starts its next leg up and you know in this cycle I mean I can see it going to 3,000 4,000 5,000 I mean higher I mean I you know it's it's kind of unlimited um it's you know the price of gold is is inversely correlated with how much money they print you know if

they stop printing money gold doesn't go up but when they print money gold goes up and they're going to have to but in the math we talked about earlier suggests they're going to have to print a lot of money now they haven't done it yet but that but it's coming in my view yeah yeah okay okay so do you do you include silver in this oh absolutely yeah yeah so yeah so gold and silver track the same I mean silver is kind of like the wildchild of gold you know it's a fraction of the market size of gold

and it doesn't have a big big stock out there it gets used and which is why it's more volatile when there's a shortage of it you know the price goes much harder and faster there's a big underlying stock of gold and so there's not there's not as likely to be quote unquote shortage um but yes I mean typically as we all know from studying these things in the past when you have a bull market in Precious Metals silver way vastly outperforms gold and so I'm very bulled up and excited about silver and my fund

is focused on a lot of the silver miners for just that reason and I I fully I mean I I expect gold you know in a year to say let's say it's 3,500 you know kind of conservatively you know I think silver is going to break through 50 probably be $75 or $100 within a year or two so which is as a multiple when you know it's at 30 now that's a much higher multiple than the growth in Gold so so yeah they're they're related and um but you know I mean silver just as I we'll get to bitcoin but Silver's more

volatile than gold right I mean there's a price to pay Okay so silver could outperform gold great yeah that's the good news the bad news is it goes down faster than gold too so because you know it's not um it's not the same thing so right and and let's go back to you're mentioning um the gold stocks why are they not all in up yeah yeah yeah yeah so well I think there are two things um and these were made on the panel yesterday and the guy next to me made a very good point I grew them which is one

you know the Magnificent 7 and the US Stock Market at record highs have kind of been sucking the oxygen out of room so the average investor you know if you own Apple you own all those other you know stocks you own the NASDAQ the triple Q's youve done pretty well for you know last 10 15 years and you know you're going to stick with it it's kind of like this is working why should I leave you know and uh you know Nvidia I mean good God these there have been some killer stocks right um so that's one um

and and you know so people don't think they're doing anything wrong even though all those stocks are at record valuations and I think are at very great risk of eventually entering a bare Market I'd say the second thing is is that the gold stocks it's a spread business where you're making the difference between the price of gold and your cost of Mining cost of mining is your your what they call your Asic you know your average sustaining um cost to pull pull an ounce out of the ground and

that's going up with inflation pretty consistently every year it used to as6 used to be two years ago they were $1,000 an ounce now they're 1400 an ounce and in 5 years they'll probably be 18 or, 1900 in ounce so you need higher gold prices to keep your margins the same and I think what's going on is is is I said earlier I think a lot of people kind of believe that this 25 6 700 price it's an anomaly we're going I mean I'm seeing a lot of models out of Toronto and other places ah we're going

back to 2100 you get on Bloomberg and you Google analyst consensus estimate for 5e out gold prices it's like 20 it's like 2,000 2,00 or maybe 2,100 well guys I mean five years out I think Gold's going to be 4,000 so and and and I think as a result of that people are saying to themselves well these stocks you know if if gold goes back down and they're we know there's inflation so mining costs are going to go up their margins are going to be shrinking why should I own them and so what needs to happen is we

need to have that psychological shift where people go oh you know what Gold's not going back down that Gold's going up in fact Gold's going up a lot and and these margins are you know and yeah there'll be 10% inflation in the as6 but guess what you know the price of gold is going to go up more than 10% a year so the margin is going to be growing and then suddenly everybody be discounting and building models on $3,500 gold and I can assure you I mean my companies that I've invested in they're doing really

well at you know they were doing well at 2070 they're doing great at $ 25 or $2600 gold and I mean they would be just coining and minting money at at $3,500 gold and that's where I think we're going but I don't think the market believes that and that's why I think the stocks but you know I the what will happen if it's if this is the way it's working past and past markets and I've been in this few Cycles watched it historically is they'll come a moment of recognition and then they'll make up for

lost time so I fully expect you know my fund this year is up about 40% I mean I you know if if that moment of recognition occurs next year and looking back historically I me my f go up 100% in a year I mean because they're you know they're so undervalued right now but I know that for people watching this and listening this it's really annoying and it's really painful and you've got to be really patient and I'm as angry as anybody about it that's taking this long but it's like I'm not selling I mean I

you know I want to see the next card you know and I and I'm pretty sure I mean based on historical recognition of patterns studying everything else I'm pretty sure the next couple years are going to be good for us I'm I'm pretty sure you know I I can't be sure it can't be positive but so he can be mad just don't leave yet just be mad but yeah don't sell don't sell your stocks I mean you're I think we're right on the cusa getting paid in a big way yeah okay okay

and so on this pan yesterday everybody was talking about you know different different their picks for companies yeah I'm wondering can you talk a little bit about how you the criteria that you use to select sure yeah yeah that's great so um well there let's talk about the buckets they're three buckets of gold company there are drill stories who are you know they're poking holes in the ground trying to find a big deposit and um and and that's that's a risky segment okay um but it's also got the potential

for the largest reward because some of these things have you know $10 million market caps and they poke a few holes and they find a million ounces of gold well a million ounces of gold is worth $2.5 billion and so you know you've got drill stories when you hit on a drill story it'll go up 10x or 20x or 40x so but not all of them hit of course so that's the riskiest category to be in um the safest category to be in is the one I specialize in which are the producer category these are companies who have a

known deposit 4311 certified and they also have production and so they've got positive cash flow and the the thing that makes them safer is they they're not at the whims of the market they don't have to raise money I mean drill story has to continually raise money money and dilute the investors to stay alive they don't raise money they die okay um producers um at least they have a positive cash flow they may not trade well but they have positive cash flow they're not going to go bankrupt unless

the Mind blows up the The Sweet Spot of the producer category is what I call the growing producer I mean obviously you can buy the big safe producers like you know the best one in that category probably is agnone and the second best is maybe Kinross um but those are really big companies and it's hard to grow when you've got when you're producing millions of ounces a year your growth isn't going to be very large what I like to do is find a more middle category producer they've got a mine or two that

they're working and they're going to add another couple more mines so so that you've got then you kind of got it to for you got a producer that's producing cash but they're going to use that cash to produce more and therefore it's going to grow so profits are going to go up so emerging producers kind of The Sweet Spot of what I try and do and I think they're the best area to invest in the third area is is an interesting area it's a hybrid of the two it's it's not a

drill story although and all these have somewhat of a drill story piece to them because a producer can be drooling a new property and they hit a they hit a deposit on Bingo it's a really good thing but but I'm just talking about kind of generalities on the on the developer side so so the developers the third category what they do they have a known Deposit they know they've got a bunch of gold in the ground and they're trying to figure out okay if we raised this amount of money and took this

amount of time and got these set of permits we could have gold coming out of the ground and we could have cash flow in three years and they usually sell at some fraction of what they will be worth when all those things occur and then of course one has to decide How likely are those things to occur how much is it going to cost and of course there'll be cost overruns and you know are they going to produce at the level they thought they were going to produce that because the you know the process might

not work the way they thought it will and um you know they're they're it's Murphy's Law there are like 10 things that can go wrong however if you have a really good management team and a really good deposit and you buy it cheap enough you can make a lot of money on those too but you want to buy them at the right point in the cycle you know I'm sure your listeners generally know the Lan curb is you don't want to buy them when they're a long way away from production because there just a lot of things can

go wrong take a lot of time it's dead money but if you can get them if if for some reason they're getting pretty close to production and they're still reasonably priced risk reward wise and the management team is good so that the projections are credible they can do very well in those so so I have some of those too but I'm I'm I gu I the one thing I would say to people looking at this space is either have a professional help you do it or buy an index just to be you know Diversified safe or you know

really try and do the work to understand what companies you're involved with and invest with good people because it is an industry that has a very wide range of management competence and and you really want to try and be with the people who know what they're doing because you know it's it's it's another thing about it is an industry it's an industry where you lose all your money I mean I I was investing before this I was investing in a lot of other General companies and you're adjusting the average company

doesn't go bankrupt lots of miners go bankrupt right and so so if you blow the call if you get the bad management team it's you can go bankrupt which is no fun yeah not not fun at all and I I like how a wide range of of manager yeah okay you know what I'm talking about right even in this industry and anyone who anyone who knows the industry understands what I'm saying okay so really good to go over the gold the gold stocks and and let's head over to Bitcoin now which I'll need your help it's not my my area

of expertise but let's see how we do so we had gold as we talked but went down after the election and Bitcoin meanwhile a total opposite dur and we were talking before we turned the cameras on is it out 100,000 yet not quite close so so maybe you can help you understand what's going on there is this is this optimism about Trump being pro crypto what is yeah it's a great question and and it's I'll try and piece it to pull it apart there are different pieces to it so first a couple things um I think are

interesting and your your readers might or listeners might enjoy understanding you know Bitcoin sat flat most of this year Bitcoin was stuck there was a big joke about it on Twitter the meme you the 58,000 club it just kept it kept hitting 58,000 wouldn't go anywhere wouldn't go gold broke out and I you know and I own both and I have friends in both camps and I and I think the camp should be friends not enemies and but I I found all the Bitcoin say hey you know what the hell's going on Gold's going up

you know um and our shit's not and and I was like this is the way it happened every you know last couple of Cycles gold is bigger more widely distributed more people understand it it's smells it first gold moved first I said I said you should be happy that Gold's moving because it means bitcoin's about to move and and and it was about the same amount of a lag time it was like three or four months gold broke out in in you know in March and no it's more than three or four months it was about six months and

then Bitcoin really started moving this fall right and and now it's moved with great Authority um with respect to the Trump thing yes I mean I think what happened is but gold had gold has had one hell of a year there aren't a lot of years where Gold's up 30% from 2070 to 207 00 that's a that's a hell of a good move for gold um and it was ready for arrest Bitcoin on the other hand had just started to move and yes I think the final thing that pushed the Bitcoin move was that the Harris Administration well

the Biden Administration with with you know um was Pocahontas you know that Warren Senator Warren hates Bitcoin they hated Bitcoin they're giving all the Bitcoin companies tons and tons of trouble there were a lot of worries about what might happen to it and if Harris won and and obviously Trump has signaled and and Kennedy and others have signaled that they're extremely Pro Bitcoin and and you know you've got Senator Lumis has produc has introduced a bill for Bitcoin strategic Reserve

which would be a huge thing if the US government started buying Bitcoin and putting it on its balance sheet the way we have gold as a as a you know a store of value so I think I think that the the political you know um earthquake that kind of occurred when Trump won um was ex extremely positive for Bitcoin and that and that really added Rocket Fuel to it so so yeah that I think that's the biggest part of the explanation right and I think again we have to ask so what do you think he may actually accomplish

out of these these many promise well yeah I you know look yeah look I I I think he's well intentioned and I'm very encouraged that his team this time around I think is is much better than his prior team I mean I was a Kennedy supporter I believe RFK was a very good candidate I'm I'm a telsey gabard fan um you know he he did not bring the neocon back I he left Pompeo out he left Nikki Haley out um and I and I do think he's kind of anti-war and and there's a chance that he'll figure out a solution

to the Ukraine problem um I you know honestly I don't know how much you can how much he can accomplish I mean I think um you know I I think his idea of trying to enforce fair trade by using tariffs as a threat is a good idea I think in general tariffs are a bad idea I mean they're they're going to slow down trade be inflationary cause problem but I think if you want to hold them up as a threat and say hey look you guys you don't play fair with us we're not going to we're going to put a tariff on

you it's a good idea make them play fair with us um so you know I I think that uh the Doge committee that that that VC and and Elan they will cut some expenses they will you know they will get us moving in the right direction and they'll slow down the just absolutely insane spending and and that's a net positive for the country um but I don't think it will be enough to prevent what I call kind of the Revolt of the bond market which I then think is going to lead to quite what I said earlier kind

of the big print and I think when the big print comes our stuff's going to go nuts I mean I you know we're I'm I'm like I said I think we were talking off camera before I fully expect Bitcoin is going to go to 200,000 I fully expect Gold's going to go to 5,000 in the next couple years so um and and I mean I can assure you if gold knowing running a Gold stock mining fund gold goes to 5,000 oh my goodness I mean this stuff is I mean all all the suffering gold stockholders out there like you me and

probably a lot of your listeners who' been wondering what the hell is going on this stuff stinks we're going to be very pleasantly surprised you know so I that's that's what I see coming but you know it hasn't happened yet and I could be dead ass wrong you know and it's hard to be patient I mean I get it you know it's really hard I mean I'm having a hard time being patient so totally understanding all the frustration but I don't know what else to do because I you

know it's not like I want to go buy bonds and and and it's not like you know I mean it be another thing if the stock market were fairly priced and some really good opportunities over there I'd say okay fine let's go buy stocks but the stock market is just it's a record you know if you look at the numbers on the stock market I mean we are more expensive than we were in 1929 I it's really crazy crazy overvalued so okay okay so we've got kind of the Bitcoin price outlet came into there so we

covered that one what I what I do want to as we get to the end kind of ask you is so we're here at this conference with traditionally this focused on gold I feel like we are getting a little bit it's shifting isn't it yeah yeah I I feel yeah so so for people here or or in the audience you might be thinking all right I'm ready for Bitcoin let's let's do this what is a good Buble to get in at at the moment how how should they apprach it yeah that's a great question so a couple things that I think you'll

find interesting when I ran my when I did my presentation on Wednesday night I asked how many people here own Bitcoin it was more than half well over half maybe 60% so and these are gold people here for sure um but to answer your question how do you get into it I mean I always say to my clients the only wrong allocation to bitcoin is zero and gold and Bitcoin are are different they're both sound money assets I call Gold analog sound money I call Bitcoin digital sound money um Bitcoin is growing faster than gold because it's on

an adoption curve and it's got a lot more asymmetry than gold but there's a price to that and the price is volatility and you have to understand that we've had four or five Cycles where the price of you know Bitcoin has gone down over 50% so and and the time where I've seen people get hurt is they buy Bitcoin it goes down 50% they panic and they sell it because if you wait four years it always comes back and goes on to a new high but you've got to understand what you're buying but back

to how you how one goes about buying it I think you make a decision that you want to buy it you can buy it through an ETF you could do self- custody there are reasons to do that but it's more complicated and I think maybe you start with probably the best book on the subject which is a book called the Bitcoin standard by safine amamos um Amo us widely available on um Amazon it's it's probably the bestselling Bitcoin book by far and it will really kind of walk you through and explain the the the

investment case for Bitcoin and then how you do it and then beyond that there are some other books that kind of teach you you know some of the subtleties about how the network operates and self- custody and you know it's it's a big rabbit hole and you kind of got to go through it but if you just I mean the beautiful thing one of the big positives that happened this year and I think actually did drive the Bitcoin price a lot and I was shocked it happened going to be honest with you I thought they

wouldn't do it when they approved the Bitcoin ETFs that was a big deal I mean you know a lot of people who were my friends said well I'm not going to invest in that because the government's going to Outlaw it you know they I mean there's no way they're going to let that happen it's it's money they can't control they don't want you to do that well okay but then the SEC approves an ETF that has it and I was like you know oh well that's a little different isn't

it so you know so now if you have a stock brokerage account you can say buy me fbtc or buy me ibit and you effectively own Bitcoin now you don't entirely own it you own it as a proxy through a brokerage and if that brokerage fails or if the government decides to seize all the Bitcoin you've got a problem and that's you know that's another layer that's down the rabbit hole of that leads to self- custody which means you've got to get your own cold wallet and you've got to learn how

to self custody you got to learn how to store in you know you don't learn this overnight but but it's but it's in it's imminently learnable and any any bitcoiner that you know if you have a friend who's a bitcoiner that'd be happy to teach it to you you there are tons of videos and books that teach it there's a guy on Twitter called BTC sessions he has an enormous number of videos and you just go watch those and and pretty soon you'll be a Bitcoin expert you'll be

you'll feel very comfortable having your own coins and self- custody and you know you'll have what I consider to be the most asymmetric bet out there I mean again I would I would really encourage people to go to my Twitter feed look back a day or two and click on my presentation because there's some charts in there that show the performance the relative performance of Bitcoin gold in this S&P it's just crushing everything and so you know if as I say to people okay you know maybe you don't believe in

it or you know and I'm not I'm never suggesting anyone should put all their money in Bitcoin but to have zero of something that might really go I mean I think this will go up 10x and then I think it'll go up 10x again I'm talking over a decade okay but if that's really what it's likely to do do you want to own none of it I mean why not have 1% of it or 10% of it you know I mean if if if 1% and you're wrong so you lose 1% if you're right you might make 10x you might make 100x so it's it's that kind

of a thing it's a very asymmetric bet so that's why I'm that's why I'm so positive about it yeah okay okay a lot of good information I'll try to dig up your presentation slides I can link it in you can link it in it's right on my Twitter feed yeah I'll take a look for that okay I think I think we've covered out here I think did you have any F of thoughts you need people with it did did we get it no I think you I think that's it I think you I think you basically got

the message and you're you're very good interview so I um yeah I um you know I just keep saying the same thing over and over again I mean what I really you know the thing the thing I would just say to people I I'll make one broad statement you know if we're gonna if we're in a sovereign debt crisis and I think we are and if we're going to have a lot of inflation I think we do and if we're going to go to have a monetary reset they're going to be real winners and losers and and you're not going to get a

doover you know you're you're not going to get a doover it's not going to be like oh gosh I missed it maybe I'll you know I mean it's like we could wake up one day and the government could say you know we're going to a gold standard we're taking the price of gold up to $220,000 well we either own gold and gold mining stocks or you don't they're going to go up enormously same thing with Bitcoin I mean you know the us could say we're going to do a strategic

Bitcoin reserve and the Bitcoin price could triple well if you don't have any you don't benefit from that so there will be you know because of the risk of monetary debasement and the fact that there will be no do over I would just strongly encourage all of your listeners to have some allocation of their wealth into things that the government can't print the government can't print gold government can't print silver government can't print Bitcoin and the government can print dollars and

they're going to print a shitload of dollars in my opinion so that's that's that's what I would leave you with it this is where and thank you very thank you so much yeah I really enjoyed it okay let's I'm charlot McLoud with investing.com and this is Lord laart [Music]