I'm Charlotte Mloud with investingnews.com and here today with me is Joe Mazundar, editor of Exploration Insights. Thank you so much for being here. Great to have you. >> Thanks for the invite. >> Of course. Always good to catch up with you and it's been a while. We're here once again at PDAC officially. This is the end of day two. So, I'm curious. You've been hopefully out on the show floor taking a look around. I've been stuck up here. What is sentiment like?


What have you been hearing? Well, well, I got here Thursday night uh because I went to uh uh I I do a short course with some uh colleagues at PDK and uh so one reflection of sentiment that that short course had a capacity I think of about 90 or 100 and that sold out and then they added and that sold out as well. So that's one indication of positive sentiment and then the next day I presented at the metals investment forum and that had 63 companies presenting which was I believe a record and the


amount of uh attendees as well. Um I had seven companies and it was really quite uh a buoyant atmosphere let's say. Um and then you know I've been walking the floor uh and uh yeah I mean the the core shack area is very full. Uh yeah there's there's a lot more people uh very um there's a lot more people with money I would say right now. Uh a lot more pens and toques and socks that you could pick up if you're if you're that way. >> I got to make it down there tomorrow.


I'm going to make it >> if you need socks or something. Well, maybe for Toronto, but I think I would always need socks. It's so cold. All right, so we we last spoke a year ago at this same event. So, I wondered if we could talk about how your portfolio is looking right now in terms of commodity breakdown, but also company size. >> Okay, so that's interesting. So, we usually keep the portfolio to 20ish companies. Uh and so um over this year I've I've I've sold one which was


underperforming uh for political reasons. Uh and then I sold a half a one that had done really well uh which was a rare earth developer believe it or not. Um and then uh recently this morning I got the announcement that another company in the portfolio got taken out which was Arizona Sonora Copper uh by Hud Bay and which all shares transaction uh which we did well from u now I have to decide how I play this in terms of um selling into this or um keeping the HUD bay shares and uh what I've seen in in


in these markets sometimes you know, it's best to uh you know, keep some of the shares uh especially if you're bullish copper, which I am. >> Okay. Okay. That's a very immediate. >> Yeah. And so uh yeah, so so with that, >> you know, reduction of a company, then I'll be looking to add. >> Yes, of course. That was the next question. If you have cash that you're looking to deploy at this time, so then you will. >> Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And obviously it's


harder because everything's come up quite a bit. But then whatever your minimum was in terms of value, you're probably lifting that four or five times, you know, in terms of what your base is. >> Yeah. >> Uh your liftoff point. >> Yeah. Can you can you share where you might be looking for opportunities because you know things are expensive but then there is that potential for so many things to go up. >> Yes. And and the problem is that when you look for something and you say,


"Well, this is cheap compared to this other thing." And then you go, "Well, why is it cheap?" And it might be jurisdictionally in the wrong spot, still the management team doesn't have great access to capital. They might get money, but they might have to issue warrants or do something that might not be great for uh the share count. Um, you know, or there's a technical issue with the underlying deposit. And so when you find deposits that don't have that a fatal flaw, let's say good jurisdiction


with good management, you will have to pay up for it. And I'm not worried about paying up for it because I've seen things from there go up even more because more people are attracted to it. And when it reaches and this is the uh the interesting thing about this market is uh when you do increase liquidity you get a boom in your share price uh when you do have news because suddenly uh you become more attractive to people looking for more liquid names and higher market caps. And so it you know you


might think oh it's a billion so I should you know sell this and go back to something that's 100 or less. Uh, but you might find that that might outperform. >> That's very tricky. And I think it leads into a question I had. I was going to ask you about the overall health of the juniors as a segment right now. It sounds like probably pretty good. >> Yeah. I mean, I I did uh some breakdown of financing and what I've noticed is it's a bit asymmetric. So, a lot of the


money has been going to the same usual suspects and it's the rest of them that are sort of they're making more but they're not doing fantastic. But, you know, I've seen companies that have asked for the um money from the market and have been easily upsized, sometimes double, you know, because there's so much demand for that company, for the asset, for the jurisdiction exposure to that management, but somebody else still has to issue a full year, 5-year warrant, you know, to uh gain that uh that


financing. So, uh it's still a market where there is a symmetry towards the better better names. Well, I I would say that's kind of good to hear. >> It is good, but um yeah, and in this market, we probably, you know, where if you're waiting for less companies to think about, uh you probably have a few more to think about. But if I do my filtering, I don't think about those companies. I I have a narrow window in terms of what I think about. >> Very good. So, that gives us an idea of


how healthy they are. What are what are the main challenges for the juniors right now? It sounds like a lot of them have access to different amount of capital but they have that coming toward them. What are what are the main challenges? >> Well, I I would say for the juniors that are exploring let's say grassroots or you know advanced stage right now with the higher prices we are seeing creeping nationalism uh where we're seeing higher royalties being imposed by some West African countries like Ghana. We're


seeing higher um uh ownership requirements uh like Bkina Faso, Kiyaka potentially with West African resources. We're seeing security issues like you've probably talked about before with Mexico. We're seeing permitting delays whether it's British Columbia um uh they're getting through their permits in Peru but that has been an issue. But on a positive side, u a lot of the uh elections right now in South America, you know, past tense uh with Argentina, now more recently Chile,


um Bolivia maybe, um and also upcoming with Peru, uh a lot of these countries are probably moving to the center right. So that is more of a positive for u business and and for mining. Yeah, that is a theme that's come up a few times here, that move toward the right and the potential benefits for mining. So, that will be interesting to track. I wonder if we can go back to Mexico and talk about that a little bit more because that's been another jurisdiction that's been coming up quite repeatedly today.


So, how do you feel about that? I've been being told a lot that if you want to be, especially in silver, you have to be in Mexico. So, what are your thoughts on it as a jurisdiction? Well, I'd argue you don't uh because u I went out of my way to find things over the last three years out of Mexico, but silver. So, in terms of a demand um supply, they, you know, one in northwest Argentina has done really well because it is a silver play that's not in Mexico and it's advanced. And that's another thing


that's happening is that when people um you know on the theoretical assan curve get to the orphan period a lot of the retail and those people looking for that initial bump leave but we're not seeing much of a downdrop because there's so few development projects that people are keeping those and the ones that have done best in the portfolio have been advanced projects not the grassroots explorers you know so uh they've done very well for me so getting back to Mexico, the issue is you know in


anything if you give somebody money can they execute their plan and so if it's a permitting issue they can't execute their plan but then if it's a security issue that becomes another um you know problem and and and in Mexico I I give full points that it's not a blanket >> for this kind of violence cartileled violence but for me I don't want to spend my life being a um a cartel expert, you know, and concluding things that I have no idea about. You know, I would prefer to go someplace where I


don't have that overarching issue that I might get an incident like this show up on the news. >> Yeah, there's a lot of uncertainty. It seems like there's a lot of guessing going on right now. >> Yes. And everybody in Mexico obviously wants to be positive about it. Uh but if we take a lot of the M&A that happened previously a year or two ago, it was for Mexican silver assets that were producing whether it was first majestic gateau um heckla for silverrest I believe and then um and then it was mag


got taken out by pan-ame. But what was interesting to me was Fresno, who's the operator of Wanicipio, the easiest transaction you can ever make is to take the remaining part of the mine you already operate because there's zero due diligence, >> right? >> Cuz you are the operator, but they didn't do it. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. Uh they did a small transaction in Canada, which is, you know, nowhere near as the size of Wicipio. Uh but it was interesting to me that they didn't do it


>> and they're Mexican-based. >> Yeah, that's a little maybe a little bit telling. >> Yeah, that's you know, so and I've known from my time in South America looking at other projects that they're out and about looking at silver projects and that outside of Mexico and into the states. >> Okay. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. And before we turn the camera on, you had mentioned some other interesting M&A type activity for assets where maybe companies are essentially looking to


balance out their jurisdictional risk. Can you talk about that because that's quite fascinating. >> Okay. One would be orzone. So uh what what has been happening I mean obviously we all know what's happening in West Africa with the military hontas uh and and some countries looking for additional ownership. So you can have a free carry for about 10 to 15% I believe it is and Bkina Faso has that. Uh but now on the new projects like West African Resources has one mine that they're mining and they're doing fairly


well on it. Uh their share price has done very well. It's uh ASX listed. Um but the new project Kiaka uh it looks like the Bkina Faso government is negotiating to get a bigger chunk of that like a 25% chunk. And so on the sidelines is orzone that's going from mining oxide ore gold uh in small open pits to going to the sulfide which would require a bigger mill maybe 2 and a half million tons per year and maybe expanding it even more further to extend the pits deeper. But now there's a


threat even though the government has sort of told them that oh maybe we're not going to demand 25% of yours. there's still that underlying risk that their investors are worried about. So if they're going to the market to raise capital to do it when their last capital raise was actually on the ASX and not the TSX because they thought there was more demand for that kind of West African name and less geopolitical risk discount if you if if you raise money on the ASX versus the TSX. Um so so they


did that they raised money but then to do the next step and raise additional money you know a lot of people are wondering well how much do you get and so their latest transaction which would be revealing is that they bought Casabari an operating uh gold mine uh and a bit of silver I think uh in um in Quebec I think it is uh and uh from from uh from Heckla um you know between upfront costs def contingent payments, deferred payments. It's over $500 million. They don't have that kind of money right now.


Um but so Franco Nevada has come in and give them a hundred million stream on on the gold. So that's one form of diversification u to show growth outside of West Africa. Uh another one would be El Dorado Gold, which probably makes less sense uh for some because it's Elorado Gold. Uh they have development projects in Greece, two or three. Uh one that's supposedly going to go into commercial uh production this year. Um and then they bought Foran. So Foran has the Macana copper zinc deposit


in Saskatchewan underground getting into commercial production. Uh underperformed this year last year versus uh versus Elorado Gold, but they bought that. Uh so you're wondering, well, you're gold. Why are you buying copper? Uh and also you have all these development projects that you're building. So why do you adding another development project? Granted, this one's close to commercial. Uh and then for Forand, they took a hit in their share price because they had to go back to the capital markets and raise


another 300 350 million to build their project. So their shareholders are saying, why didn't you wait till you got into production and got a reer rate before you you accepted a takeout target? you know, so both their share prices went down after the announcement. >> Oh, that's not Nobody wants that. >> Yeah, that's Yeah, so neither shareholder liked that. >> That's that's really interesting. So although for the gold company going toward copper that does seem to be a


trend among the bigger miners, they seem to be wanting the copper exposure, >> but that's changed now because if you look at Beric, now they're talking about doing an IPO on North America. So North America would be Nevada. It would include Pueblo VJO in the Dominican Republic. But it would not include Rico Dick which is their big copper development project in Balokan Pakistan which has its own issues and uh the expansion of Lumana and Zambia. So all that copper growth would not be in this


company. >> So why why do you think they were going toward including the copper and now no we should >> they changed CEOs. So Mark Bristo was thinking about copper. He didn't want to pay a premium on some of these assets in less geopolitically risky uh jurisdictions. Uh so he basically built where the uh where there's more of a discount places like Africa, the Middle East or you know Central Asia like Pakistan. Uh and he's building those. Rico Dick is not a small project but


it's in a problematic area not only security-wise but infrastructurally. uh but so they have Nevada which is you know very low geopolitical risk you get a premium for assets like there but they're not getting it and then also they have four mile which is an incredible project you know 17 g underground uh you know I don't know tens of millions of ounces uh and so they're not getting the premium on that asset and that's probably their jewel in the crown going forward so they want they want


that out there so somebody could just value that unfettered by all the risk of Pakistan and Africa. So that's the reason they're doing it. And but if you look at the valuation, it's probably I mean it's probably the majority of their market cap. So if their market cap's 80 billion, 60 billion of that is that spin out. And so now the question is how much does Beric own of the spit out and is that become a takeout target for somebody like Newmont? >> So do you like do you like this split


up? Does it make sense to you? How do you see it playing out? Um, oh, well, they've already said that they're going through with it. The board has approved it. Yeah. So, I I see it happening. >> So, I guess I guess I mean more. Will it be successful? >> I mean, I the the problem has been with Bareric some of the discount they they've gotten. I mean, they they've underperformed the GDX and more underperformed their arch nemesis, which is uh Numont. Uh and some of that


rationale is because uh their production growth has been declining and it appears that some of that's related to poor operational performance and so they might get a discount because it's still them that's operating. Um but does somebody else come in and take over and do better with it and do they get a better premium if like a pneumont operates it rather than a bareric? Um I don't think technically it doesn't really matter because all those people will still be there and and they go back from being new


employees to bareric employees all the time. So um yeah I I think they will get a premium and if the gold price keeps doing what they were it will make a lot of sense to do it because you wouldn't have a lot of growth in Pakistan and Zambia versus growth in Nevada. Well, and speaking of the gold price, I know that you are not a person who is trying to choose companies based on what the metal price is going to do, but I thought it's worth asking. There's a lot of focus on gold right now. Where would


you place us in the cycle? >> It's not really a normal thing what's happening right now. Uh, and usually um like usually it's about real rates. It's about the trend of real rates. What's the economy doing in the US mostly? Are real rates going down or are they going up? When how many interest rate cuts are we going to get in 2026 and all that? That's what's not driving it now. I mean, we went from a real boost at the end when nobody's really looking at the market when uh when the


administration was talking about Greenland and then right around New Year's we had Venezuela. So, we seem to go from geopolitical crisis to geopolitical crisis. Most of these impacts don't resonate for a long term, but if you have one after another after another, they they never revert. The price never reverts. And now you have an incident right now in uh in Iran with uh with the US administration and Israel uh that we don't know what the endgame is there. uh and so that will have a longer


term impact on gold price but also it's impacting oil prices and so that will impact inflation uh and so that in the end will impact gold price again. So all of this will um will be something that'll resonate longer than let's say something like Greenland and what happened in Venezuela. >> Yeah. Yeah. It does become a little bit circular and it all comes back to gold. >> Yeah. But definitely what's happening now >> is more material >> than than Venezuela or Greenland.


>> Yeah. Yeah. We'll have to wait and see how this one it's been pretty tough asking these questions today because I imagine everything changes tomorrow. But we'll see. >> Yeah. Yeah. And they'll change again. And the fear you have is to say something and have it refuted the next second. Uh but what what I see is that this thing is not going to end >> anytime soon. >> Yeah. I think that's a >> and now you're drawing everybody else into it. You know, potentially, you


know, uh the straits of Hormuz and all that distribution of oil be problematic. Uh so yeah, it's it's not in, you know, it's a time to hold gold probably. Uh but it's not something that's ephemeral. It's not going to have a short-term impact. >> Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And so on the note of geopolitical tensions, we've got we see how it impacts gold. The other thing that's being really drawn into this is critical minerals >> and you're mentioning you had this rare


earth's play that you were involved in. I think we talked about that at some point in the past. So that's pretty interesting. Are you doing anything else in the critical minerals sector? How are you approaching that? >> Well, my biggest critical mineral commodity exposure would be copper >> because it is a critical. Uh uh yeah. And uh and so that company was just taken out this morning. Uh Arizona Sonora was taken over by Hud Bay. Uh Critical Mineral, you know, uh in in in the US, which is, you know, pushing


critical mineral projects and and and favoring permitting and that. But what's favorable about that project is actually going to produce cathode. So it doesn't have to go to a smelter in Asia. um it could stay domestically there uh and go straight to the end user. So copper is another one. Uh and I've done quite well on um a company that um that uh has hit copper and nickel up in Minnesota which is Talon. And then Talon did this transaction transformational where they bought the Eagle Mine and the Humbult


Mill from Londin. Uh, and so they're they've just set themselves up to be another critical mineral producer right now in the US, US-based, US focused. So jurisdictionally for critical minerals, I really like the US. >> Yeah, I think it was hard at least for me to tell initially are all of these different things that are being announced by the US, are they going to have an impact? But now certainly it seems like yes. Well, I've got I've got a gold developer that went on to fast


41. Uh, and there's a transparency uh list and then there's a covered list. The covered list is the one you want to be on where they actually dedicate an individual from the department to actually look at how your permitting is going. So, it's not you phoning these people up, it's them phoning their own people up to make sure they keep to their own deadlines. So when they give you a schedule, it's not going to be delayed. >> Yeah. Very very Yeah. That's quite concrete.


>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and and that the market could take. >> Yeah. >> It goes, okay, it's going to take whatever two years, but it's a solid two years. It's not going to be two going to 10. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Really interesting. I I don't want to keep you too long because we are at the end of the day, but I'm going to give you my fun question that I've been asking people here. >> This has all been fun. >> Well, good. I think this one is extra


fun. in that case. So the scenario is if there was a young investor who had $10,000, they want to come into the resource space. They don't have any exposure. How would you suggest that they approach that? >> One, think about your own thesis. Are you thinking gold? Are you thinking silver? Are you thinking critical minerals? Then once you got the commodity sorted out, then you figure out how much work do you want to do on this investment? Because if you don't want to do any work then just buy an ETF


either on the commodity or on the equities depending how much leverage you want and then if you want to do more work then go into production. If you want to do more work then look at development. If you want to do like very high risk and want to do even more work then you can go on to exploration. So manage manage how much work you're willing to do on your investment uh in in terms of the liquidity of that asset. The more liquid it is, the you don't have to do a lot of work because you if you make a mistake, you can get


out right away. Problem is as you go into the juniors, if you make a mistake, you'll eat that for a long time. It'll be hard to get out. >> I think that's very reasonable. And I'll let you go unless you had any final words that you want to end on. No, I think that's great. >> Perfect. Well, thank you so much. Great to have you once again. Hope to do it again soon. >> All right. Thank you. >> And once again, I'm Charlotte Mloud with investingnews.com and this is Joe


Mazundar with Exploration Insights.